Why is Charisma always Dumped?

[Xeviat]

After four years of gaming, I have officially become tired that Charisma is always dumped. It has become especially aparent after having my 6 players make characters for a Tome of Battle game; only the Crusader has a charisma above 10 (and the ones who have 10s instead of 8s did so because they wanted "to be different").

Looking it over, charisma applies to many class abilities and a good number of skills (including arguably the most potent skill in the game, Use Magic Device). Even still, characters who don't have a charisma based class ability generally don't think twice about dumping Charisma.

So I'm here to discuss this situation, and possibly to decide upon an ability to give Charisma, outside of it's skills and current class abilities, to make it useful to everyone. I use the word "useful" because I don't want the stat to become required: there are many archetypes that are fitting to have a low charisma. I just want Charisma to have an ability that can be useful to anyone, so that dumping it becomes a hard choice (just like dumping any stat).

I'd like to gather some opinions before I start throwing out suggestions.

[CYMRO]

My experience has been Wisdom is equal to Charisma as a dump stat.

[Xeviat]

I'll admit that I tend to dump Wisdom, but that's because I like playing high Charisma characters. Even still, dumping Wisdom has a mechanical penalty; you have a lower Will save. Charisma lacks such a penalty.

[snakefing]

If you are using point buy, it is simply optimal to have some dump stat. The player trades a penalty in some less used aspect of the character for a bonus in an area that is central to the character. For a lot of character archetypes, Charisma is the less necessary and hence the logical choice. (For others, Wisdom makes some sense, although the effect on Will saves is something of a check on this.)

I don't know there's much you can do about that. If you are using point buy or any other alternative that allows some degree of optimization, characters will always end up with their lowest value in the least valuable stat.

What you want to do is try to push Charisma up in importance so it is approximately equal to Wisdom, Intelligence, and Strength. Wisdom is important for Will saves, Intelligence for skill points. Strength is a common dump stat for non-combat types, but lots of classes need at least decent Strength even if it is not one of their primaries. Dexterity and Constitution are too useful generally to make good dump stats.

So what would do the trick? I'm not sure a skill usage would match up to that - most players find a way to ensure that the skill is covered in some way by some high CHA character, allowing the other characters to dump it. If you could come up with some way that CHA is used in saving throws as often as Wisdom is, that might do the trick. (A new type of saving throw used for certain types of magic or psi or something, for example.)

Incidentally, I've suggested elsewhere a variant that doesn't eliminate dump stats, but instead randomizes them. Using point buy, a player can designate a single stat to be generated randomly using either 3d4+3 or 3d6 (averaging dice), at no cost in points. Either way, the stat ranges randomly from 6-15. Make the roll after you've chosen your other stats and chosen race and class. Random enough to generate some variability in the characters, not powerful enough to unbalance the point buy (since even a good value will be in a stat that the player didn't care enough to buy).

[brainface]

Charisma gets dumped because you have to have some class ability to use it for it to be worthwhile, whether that's lay on hands or the diplomacy skill. It controls use magic device, sure, but there's been better ideas than buying cross-class ranks of use magic device.

Another thing is that you only need one character in the party with the social skills. There's no need for two diplomancers, so 3/4 of the party members can dump charisma. That's not really true for any other stat, as they have personal penalties for low scores, as opposed to charisma's group bonus for high scores.

My suggestion would be to add some cha-based feats, like for instance cha-based fighter feats along the lines of whirlwind attack. That chain of feats encourages fighters, who don't really need intelligence, to get at least 13--something similiar could be done for charisma, surely.

[Johnny Wraith]

I feel this way as well, because I always have found that the highly charismatic people in the world are the truly powerful ones, the ones that can move the masses, inspire an army, etc. I'm still thinking on what to do to give Cha a boost in my setting, but so far, a house rule that has done me some good is having cha give the PC a number of "action points" that they can use to boost rolls they make. So if you've got 18 on Cha, you've got 4 points to spend on any roll (Be it a save or an attack, or whatever) per day. Some people might say that it would give too much of a boost to sorcerers or bards.. but meh, I don't find it unbalancing at all.

[Velox]

Charisma gets dumped because it has no effect on most games. Often in the game of Dungeons and Dragons I find that if you cannot hack something to bits, or blow it to smithereens, or stick a shank in its spine, then you cannot defeat it. It's not often the players can defeat the dragon, bypass traps, and get the treasure all with words. Make charisma more important by making it an option; make the NPCs of the world more friendly and negotiable with a charismatic character, and let the characters occasionally win with nothing but words.

[Lmns Crn]

It's a DM style thing.

Charisma governs social interaction, and that's all it does. (Unless you're a rare case with class abilities based upon it.) A lot of gamers I've met seem to make one or both of the following assumptions:

A. "We won't have much to deal with that we have to sweet-talk our way out of."
B. "If we have to, we'll just RP our way through, without making any actual Charisma-based skill checks."

Assumption B is the real killer. Of course Charisma isn't given a high priority as an ability score if a player who's reasonably quick on his feat can talk his way through any situation based on his own speaking talents, despite the fact that his character, with a Charisma of 6, wouldn't be nearly as socially adept!

I had a DM once who would "translate" for characters with low Charisma, when their players were too well-spoken. So when our barbarian (Cha = 4) was trying to wheedle some first aid from our cleric after a tough battle, "Excuse me, could I have some healing, please?" became "Hey you, gimme some of that healin' shit!"

Personally, I don't like putting words in people's mouths like that, but it made a good point: if your sheet says Charisma 4, you are expected to act like you have Charisma 4. (The same can go for Int and Wis as well, but Charisma seems to be the most noticable offender.)

Personally, I often deliberately keep a low Charisma because I find playing those kinds of personalities (surly, timid, belligerent, or just completely out of touch with people... you decide!) very entertaining. But that's another story entirely.

[Xeviat]

Constitution is the only stat that I can see never dumping (even then, I've seen one or two rogues who dumped it because they needed everything else). And yes, I do use point buy, because over the years I've grown tired of PCs outshinning other PCs.

Charisma's issue is that there's nothing it does that is important to all characters. Someone mentioned that non-combative character's can dump strength, but even that isn't entirely true; I once made a rogue/wizard who intended on heading for arcane trickster, and while I wanted to dump strength I couldn't do it and still keep myself in a light load (blasted halflings).

Action points really seems to be the only solution that's come to me. So I have two proposals:

1) Add your charisma modifier to the number of action points you gain at each level.
2) Add your charisma modifier to your action point roll when ever you spend action points.

I like 2, because it has a sizable benefit for standard uses, but 1 is more useful in the long run because there are uses for action points that don't utilize rolls.

Again, looking at the literature, most heroes have a high charisma. Yes, there are those who don't, which is why I don't want to require high charisma. But the offered solutions (play up NPC reactions better) don't affect much because, one way or another, the players have to succeed. Yes, sweet talking the guards might make getting into the castle easier, but one way or another the PCs are getting in.

What do you think about my action point idea?

[brainface]

on a tangent, i hate that wimpy characters absolutely cannot dump constitution. it's almost worse for a wizard to dump constitution than a fighter.

[Xeviat]

on a tangent, i hate that wimpy characters absolutely cannot dump constitution. it's almost worse for a wizard to dump constitution than a fighter.

I think this is fixed with better death and dying rules. Though my death and dying rules utilize fortitude saves, and my use of WP/VP has made almost no one dump con (I have a monk who has in my current game ...).

[Epic Meepo]

Option: When a monster has a choice between two opponents of equal tactical value, the potential targets each make Cha checks. The monster attacks the loser of the check.

[the_taken]

Option: When a monster has a choice between two opponents of equal tactical value, the potential targets each make Cha checks. The monster attacks the loser of the check.

Now to abuse this rule. The party's dwarven defender dumps his CHA, maintaining that he is usualy the target of attacks, which is his job in the first place. He even takes a curse to lower his CHA even further.

[Lmns Crn]

Option: When a monster has a choice between two opponents of equal tactical value, the potential targets each make Cha checks. The monster attacks the loser of the check.

Monsters base their tactical decisions on their opponents' relative social adroitness/physical appearance/force of personality? That doesn't even make any sense. There are a million better and more relevant tactical reasons to choose one target over another.

In the heat of battle, is some random critter going to make a split-second tactical decision based on Elfgar the Bard's good looks and easygoing, likeable personality, in contrast to Danny Dwarf's combination alcohol and body odor aroma and excessive swearing? It makes much more sense to pick on whoever looks like the biggest threat, or whoever pissed it off the most, or whoever tastes better, or whoever's the easiest meal (plate mail breaks fangs, fyi), or whoever happens to be closest at any given moment.

[Epic Meepo]

Option: When a monster has a choice between two opponents of equal tactical value, the potential targets each make Cha checks. The monster attacks the loser of the check.

Monsters base their tactical decisions on their opponents' relative social adroitness/physical appearance/force of personality? That doesn't even make any sense. There are a million better and more relevant tactical reasons to choose one target over another.

In the heat of battle, is some random critter going to make a split-second tactical decision based on Elfgar the Bard's good looks and easygoing, likeable personality, in contrast to Danny Dwarf's combination alcohol and body odor aroma and excessive swearing? It makes much more sense to pick on whoever looks like the biggest threat, or whoever pissed it off the most, or whoever tastes better, or whoever's the easiest meal (plate mail breaks fangs, fyi), or whoever happens to be closest at any given moment.

Note the bolded phrase.

The idea is that monsters (henchmen in particular) choosing between two opponents of equal tactical value shy away from the target that seems more confident in his combat abilities in order to better preserve their hides. Remember, low Charisma doesn't just mean burly: it also means less threatening. Intimidation is a function of Charisma.

(If you prefer, replace the Cha checks in my suggestion with Intimidate checks to determine the opponent whose wrath monsters are least enthusiastic about provoking in combat. And in any case, only resort to skill or ability checks when there are two targets of equal tactical value.)