D&D Setting (The Meatloaf Setting)

[O Senhor Leetz]

Now, my general dislike of most D&D settings is no secret as I find them somewhat bland, but also hard to suspend my disbelief for. Most of that issue is tied to the over-abundance and illogical use of magic in the settings (I thought Ebberron did a good job of actually making magic more believable within itself, despite the setting's other flaws), the lack of depth and conflict amongst and between different races, religion and the way that the gods work, and - while this ties into my first point - the fact that magic is really not "magical" and exciting.  

Way back in high school, I drew up a map greatly inspired by the Baldur's Gate II world map. The setting focused on a single large city with several outlaying towns, vague borders to other lands, and plenty of neat places. It wasn't the most original or well-developed setting, but I always have toyed with getting back to it and building it back up from scratch.

So I guess what I would like to do is make a setting using the basic rules and premises of 3rd Edition D&D (not 4th Edition World of Warcraft D&D), such as races and classes, and make a setting or even an adventure, that does justice to it. Like Gary Gygax's and George R.R. Martin's lovechild.

Issues w/ Races- Elves have never made sense in D&D settings. If they can live to 700 years, why don't they rule the world? Elves get to live, approx., 10 average human lives. With age comes experience (not in the XP sense), and with experience comes knowledge, and with knowledge comes power. I know elves are "good", but that always seemed a weak excuse, just an easy out that, once again, makes no sense (alignment in general makes no sense, but I digress). Considering that elves in most D&D settings are basically just fancy humans with pointy ears, they just never seemed to be a well fleshed-out race.

Dwarfs are not much better, although they are slightly more believable as they have many more flaws (flaws=interesting) than the perfect elves do. Halflings and gnomes always seemed to be afterthoughts and half-races just seemed lazy, right along with sub-races. (And considering the plethora of half-races available to pick from, there are a lot of unanswered genetic and anatomical questions.)

Classes- While left more open-ended and dependent on the setting than races were, they never seemed to inspire awe like I thought they should. Wizards and sorcerers never seemed rare enough and never seemed to reach the awesome mystery that Gandalf had. Fighters were cool if done right, but lacked the romantic panache of other classes. Clerics, meh. Rogues were cooler when they were called Thieves. Once again, classes were something that Eberron did right, making the PC classes rare and keeping the overall levels low.

Magic - I'm pretty sure most of us agree that magic is way overdone, trite, and, well, not that magical. I was looking in the PHB from 3E today, and was thinking what a fireball spell was capable of. I mean, that's pretty dangerous stuff, and as far as D&D is concerned, available to someone of level 5 (whatever that converts to). In a setting where humans are assumed to think like humans, a handful of moderately low-level, unhinged Wizards with some fireball spells could wreak havoc in any given city.

And when it comes to items, I'm not sure they could be named any more generic. +1 longsword...snore. Potion of cure light wounds...snore. Can you imagine people haggling over something called a +1 longsword?

That all being said, and my ranting finished, there is still lots of potential in the classic premise of a D&D-based setting. While D&D no doubt has plenty of faults, it's still the proverbial reference point. I think a low fantasy, well planned and well explained setting based on the core premise of D&D3e could be pretty cool, in a retro, nostalgic way. I think focusing on a single kingdom would be much easier and a good way to see where this goes rather than take the whole cosmos on off the bat. I have a few good (I think, at least) ideas on how to implement elves and dwarves, a few thoughts on the physical setting, and a general idea of the history of immediate.

[Weave]

Spoken like a man after my own heart. After I finish up with Shattered Spectrum, I'm going to make a world much like you described (if there are races beyond Humans, they probably won't be playable; I want things like Elves and Dwarves to be very special and identifiably different creatures. Maybe even alien on some levels. And they certainly wouldn't be very prominent). I'd be interested to see how you'd implement them.

On the topic of magic, I couldn't agree more. I want magic to be in the hands of extremely practiced and specialized individuals who don't know it like the back of their hand. I'm sick of there being spells to do X and Y; I want magic to be pure, raw, creative energy put at the whim of a person. No more "I prepare a Fireball spell." In fact, generally speaking, I want people to be both fearful and awestruck by magic. I want it to be rare, to be mysterious, and to be beyond casual understanding, even by its most experienced users, and that it's not the answer to everything. No more "cast this spell to let me fly over the cliff," etc. There are things it can and can't do, and it's not so easy to just cast a spell off like that.

Of course, that diverges from the core of D&D 3rd edition, but I'd like to throw out that I am interested in this project. I do love D&D, with all its flaws, as it's something I grew up on.

[LordVreeg]

Let's talk.  I wrote something very similar to this 20+ years ago. I think we'd have a lot to say.  A lot of it also is affected by what you mean as D&D.  0D&D and 1E are verydifferent from later generations.

[O Senhor Leetz]

As for the Elves (the Syl'uwy'cyn in their tongue), alien is the word. I was thinking they would be the original inhabitants of the immediate area of the setting, but fought a war ~2,000 years ago with the newly arrived Humans (Human being a corrupted form of huw'mahn, an Elvish word that roughly translate into "bastards of the sea") from across the western oceans. A great truce was made after ~1,000 years of war, and the Elves still inhabit a great, primordial forest that is still a great mystery to Humans and forms the eastern edge of the known world. Culturally, I plan to make them a mesh of savage and refined. Ruthless warriors with a poetic bent.

Physically, they would be severely lithe and thin, but quick of mind and body: so not much of a change there. Maybe throw in strange colored eyes, porcelain skin, and jet-black hair just for kicks. However, in contrast to their theoretical immortality, I was thinking that they would go mad or develop some great melancholy as they aged, eventually succumbing to the ravages of the mind before the body. They would fear this madness more than death, in contrast to the mortal humans, who fear death above all else.

[Llum]

Dwarfs are not much better, although they are slightly more believable as they have many more flaws (flaws=interesting) than the perfect elves do. Halflings and gnomes always seemed to be afterthoughts and half-races just seemed lazy, right along with sub-races. (And considering the plethora of half-races available to pick from, there are a lot of unanswered genetic and anatomical questions.)

Magic - I'm pretty sure most of us agree that magic is way overdone, trite, and, well, not that magical. I was looking in the PHB from 3E today, and was thinking what a fireball spell was capable of. I mean, that's pretty dangerous stuff, and as far as D&D is concerned, available to someone of level 5 (whatever that converts to). In a setting where humans are assumed to think like humans, a handful of moderately low-level, unhinged Wizards with some fireball spells could wreak havoc in any given city. [/quote]And when it comes to items, I'm not sure they could be named any more generic. +1 longsword...snore. Potion of cure light wounds...snore. Can you imagine people haggling over something called a +1 longsword?[/quote]+1 longsword[/i] is lame. However in game terms, these things seem to be pretty common. It's only worth something like 2000 gp, which while is a ridiculous amount for a commoner, is not a huge deal for adventurers. I don't think that each +1 longsword deserves its own ancient history and unique name, it's still a relatively common tool. So something like a Blazesteel longsword or Quartzcore longsword, denotes that it's a special longsword, but nothing wondrous.

For potions, I disagree. Potions are utilitarian item, you want to know exactly what it does in the simplest terms. Easiest way for this is to just name them Potion of X. Potions are also relatively easy to make/distribute in 3.x (I believe). So once again they wouldn't be something wondrous, just extremely expensive (for the common man) specialty item.
 

[O Senhor Leetz]

So when our Hill Giant buddy comes over to Genericshire and starts raising a ruckus, they have to send a messenger out for someone important to come deal with it. Maybe a Baron, or a King.

Unless the setting in turn makes monsters less common. Instead of a hill giant, it is Guthmog, the giant of the Western Wold. This also in turn leads to a fable-like treatment of monsters, instead of just cannon fodder. Monsters, IMO, are unfortunately given the same treatment as magic: too much, too common, too impersonal. Now, obviously every monster can't be of such a legendary status, and cannon fodder (sword fodder?) is fun to wade through with weapons swinging, creatures like giants, dragons, and even trolls (Grendel?) should be nemeses, not XP banks.

[Cheomesh]

That is how I wrote some of the more wondrous things in a few low fantasy settings I've never really taken very far.  Monstrous and wondrous beasts are few and far between (implied to have been in population decline before humans started to dominate, otherwise they probably would have rolled us).  If there's a vampire, its THE vampire of this region.  If there's a demon, a lot went to summon even that one.  Much of the horror comes from it being otherworldly, and the larger implications of being able to bind one / make one.  A zombie is a frightening thing, difficult to destroy and all that.

Similarly magic, especially things that destroy or do visible things, stem from innate talents that had to be trained up.  Typically, these settings never had books that could teach you how to throw a magic missile - that was something innate to you (sorcerer side of the wizard/sorcerer spectrum).

I will admit though, I don't fully understand what you mean about not liking spells that do X.  If I'm a wizard, do I just make "magic happen"?  Is that functionally different from spells that do X?

M.

[Llum]

So when our Hill Giant buddy comes over to Genericshire and starts raising a ruckus, they have to send a messenger out for someone important to come deal with it. Maybe a Baron, or a King.

a[/i] hill giant, it is Guthmog, the giant of the Western Wold. This also in turn leads to a fable-like treatment of monsters, instead of just cannon fodder. Monsters, IMO, are unfortunately given the same treatment as magic: too much, too common, too impersonal. Now, obviously every monster can't be of such a legendary status, and cannon fodder (sword fodder?) is fun to wade through with weapons swinging, creatures like giants, dragons, and even trolls (Grendel?) should be nemeses, not XP banks.
[/quote]

True, that's one logical extension of this. However personally I think that goes against the D&D-ness of the setting. D&D is just as much about fighting monsters as it is having a hero IMO. Just as you have your PHB you have your MM. There are hundreds (if not thousands) of monsters made for D&D.

[Weave]

I will admit though, I don't fully understand what you mean about not liking spells that do X.  If I'm a wizard, do I just make "magic happen"?  Is that functionally different from spells that do X?

M.

I'm speaking from purely my opinion, not Leetz, but I meant in the sense that I wouldn't want there to be a list of spells for me to choose from and cast; I just want there to be energy that I can form to be like "make a beam shoot from my hand that binds that guy" when I will it into existence. Essentially, it's the same thing, and it's a spell, but it's not the spell that's written down in the rulebook that everyone gets at level 6. Not everyone will bind a target in the same way; maybe another spellcaster freezes them with paralytic energy, etc.

It's really just a reflavored spell. In my opinion, it would be a different system, but this is all within the realm of D&D, so that's not necessarily an option.

[Elemental_Elf]

Culturally Elves are good natured and tend to be content with what they have rather than succumb to the baser human instincts such as greed and ambition. They do not rule the world because nothing in the world can challenge them. Elves are the epitome of the post-modern, post-scarcity society. They have everything they want and more, so why bother conquering the lesser races?

Halflings are an afterthought because they represent teh seedy underbelly of Human civilization. Halflings are the Roma of D&D - they wander the various Kingdoms in small groups, typically familial based, and live as beggars, paupers, thieves and entertainers. There's not much to say about them other than that.

Gnomes have long struggled to differentiate themselves from the Halflings, Dwarves and Elves. The most popular concept is the Tinker Gnome which began in Dragonlance and found acclaim in Warcraft. Many do not like the more modern elements Tinker Gnomes bring to a setting, so the Gnomes are cast aside as a half-formed idea.

Gandalf was more like an Angel than a Wizard.

Mechanically that Long Sword is +1, flavor-fully that sword pierced the heart of a great Wyrm and saved the King's daughter from certain damnation. Just because the game makes it sound uninteresting does not mean its boring in the game world.

I think D&D works best in a more LotR style low-magic world but that's me.

[Steerpike]

I think D&D works best when it either a) goes for the lower-magic, fable like approach, or b) goes really, really far in the other direction, i.e. Planescape or, to a lesser extent, Eberron.  The first is sort of the Lord of the Rings approach, the second almost more of a low-tech Star Wars approach.

I also quite like the Underdark stuff, hence my old Goblin campaign... man that's still not finished... damn I'm lazy.

[Elemental_Elf]

I think D&D works best when it either a) goes for the lower-magic, fable like approach, or b) goes really, really far in the other direction, i.e. Planescape or, to a lesser extent, Eberron.  The first is sort of the Lord of the Rings approach, the second almost more of a low-tech Star Wars approach.

I totally agree - it either has to be near or really far away from reality to work properly. Settings like Forgotten Realms have so many plot holes that the ability to suspend one's disbelief is strained to the extreme.

[O Senhor Leetz]

Maybe I should refine what I mean by D&D setting.

I was reading an article about Gaudi the other week, and he was attributed with a quote that said "Originality is returning to the origin." I thought it was really neat, but at first it really didn't make me think of anything CBG-related. However, I eventually started thinking about really old school D&D (I first started playing 2E, but I know 3E the best) and how there seemed to be a relative dearth of any commercial setting that tapped into that classic vein. Eberron is Eberron, the new Forgotten Realms seems ridiculous, even the new 4E seems like pen and paper WoW.

In light of that, I thought it would be neat to work on a classic, D&D-inspired, fantasy setting. Now, I know the definition for classic is different for everyone, but I think that most of us can at least agree that Elves, Dwarves, and Humans are classic elements. Warforged, half-dragons, and Eladrin are not. I'd like to take flavor text as far I can, but much of it seems hollow and immature. Especially concerning races.

I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel, just make a really, really nice wheel.

@E_E: Yes, low-fantasy is the idea. As I mentioned earlier, George RR Martin ala Gygax. But I think how you described Elves is why they're so boring (to me at least;)). They have no flaws in a literary sense. Flaws bring conflict, and a story with no conflict isn't on that pulls you in. Also, I couldn't agree with you more on FR.

[Cheomesh]

Aren't there a hundred of these already out there, though?  Even I have one up on the wiki...

M.

[Elemental_Elf]

@E_E: Yes, low-fantasy is the idea. As I mentioned earlier, George RR Martin ala Gygax. But I think how you described Elves is why they're so boring (to me at least;)). They have no flaws in a literary sense. Flaws bring conflict, and a story with no conflict isn't on that pulls you in. Also, I couldn't agree with you more on FR.

I think the conflict with the Elves has traditionally been premised on the Drizzt model of one man casting aside the cultural norms of his people to forge a path of his own design. That's interesting to a point but, you're right, Elves typically lack that "marvel comics' flaws' to keep things interesting.