Can magic ever be balanced?

[CYMRO]

This sounds awesome.  Count my vote on removing mental ability scores.

I too tried to design a point-buy based game system. Trust me, you really don't want to know what it looked like.

The problem is going it alone.  Trust me.  I have hit many roadblocks, but I have confidence that our combined brainpower can REALLY screw this up- I mean make this work. :morons:  ;)

[beejazz]

I'm also a little leery of the proposed abilities. I'm hesitant about "no mental stats"... but willing to try it.

As I see it, dexterity should be split into manual dexterity (lockpicking, crafts, etc.) and gross dexterity (dodging, reflexes, etc.) Strength is good. A constitution-equivalent is necessary. Perception is good... unless you want to add a luck score?

My dexterity split is merely a representation of the fact that an artist is not necessarily an acrobat.

And again, I'm against too heavy of a point-buy. This should be a mixed system at best, with a minmum level for everything to help maintain game balance.

[CYMRO]

Dexterity works for fine skills.
Agility for the "acrobatics".
Strength.
Perception.

A constitution-equivalent is necessary.

In a skill based system, where you buy your HP/VP/WP(needs to be worked oot), and Concentration is bought point by point, what does Constitution really mean?
Fort saves?
Should saves be stand alones, or based off another ability?

[beejazz]

Mph... I'm curious/agitated as to the extent of this point buy system... still clinging to "levels" as a more easy-to-balance guage of PC power... and easier character creation to boot. Lots of little abilities =/= one big ability. Generic classes with point-buy features and standard-rate skills and feats seems like a better way to go. That or standard character progression and a higher rate of xp exchange... draining your soul and experience to learn a spell or what have you. Constitution seems necessary to me, but if not we should allow for luck. It's useful for gambling and in a pinch can serve as just the "magic-centric" ability we've been looking for.

[CYMRO]

Generic classes with point-buy features and standard-rate skills and feats seems like a better way to go.

Classes as such would not have to exist, but a Guild or Profession from a region (Paladin, hint, hint) might not allow someone to enter their ranks without meeting stringent requirements.

The beauty of a classless system is that someone's ideal build of a favorite is possible, as well as anything else.   :)

Constitution seems necessary to me, but if not we should allow for luck.

Luck is a fine thing for anyone to have.  

[snakefing]

Two points I'd make:

1) There are many ways to change magic, each of which lends itself to a somewhat different balancing mechanic and even more different flavor in play. It will be hard to create a single system that is all around "better". I'd think you'll be better off choosing a flavor/feel/theme and designing a system that supports it better than the current.

2) I'd be in favor of some kind of class-based mechanic. It could be point-buy or level-based, but the class would particular groups or packages of feats that are available. Personally I'd stick with level-based to be the most accessible to d20/D&D players, but that's just me.

To be clear, I dislike the fairly rigid systems of leveling and class abilities. I'd prefer a more open system where each class provided lists of major and minor abilities that the character can choose wehn they level up or buy with their points.

Skill-based and point-buy systems can be great for designing characters, but they are tough on gamemasters for creating NPC's and can be hard to master for new players. Also, the number of opportunities for min/maxing expands as the number of options expands.

A game I worked on in a previous life had 12 basic characteristics: Strength, Constitution, Dexterity, Agility, Intelligence, Judgment, Willpower, Talent, Social Standing, Charisma, Appearance, and Zeal. That was overkill.

[beejazz]

Yes, but I see people sacrificing two things they could get at "fourth level equivalent" to get something "eighth level equivalent". At the very least, people should be limited to spending x% of their points on any one thing. Also, there should be a level-esque guage of power for caster levels, etc. The normal character's "level" is an extraordinarily useful thing for... alot of things, really. Rather than have "classes" I suppose we could have "class templates". Each has a point value, scales with "level" and can only be bought at first, fifth, tenth, etc. Many class features would have these general archetypes as prerequisites. For balance's sake, a hybrid seems the way to go!

[Numinous]

I'd just like to suggest my idea for luck as an ability, perhaps we could tie it in with action points?  And I shall try to be here as the voice of reason throughout this project, since I suck at mechanics.  You all need somebody to tell you when you're going too far, although whether you listen to me or not is purely up to you.

[beejazz]

Yeah... kind of ditto. I can modify better than I can write from scratch.

[CYMRO]

I'd just like to suggest my idea for luck as an ability, perhaps we could tie it in with action points?  And I shall try to be here as the voice of reason throughout this project, since I suck at mechanics.  You all need somebody to tell you when you're going too far, although whether you listen to me or not is purely up to you.

A Critical Voice of Reason it is. :D

It is true that point based characters make CRs  difficult, but if one knows the XP total of a character, no matter how he has spent them, you can create appropriate challenges for him based on that.  And Templates/Packages, PC or NPC, make a dandy guide, though not as any strict sort of class.  Imagine a Fighter with all of the normal fighter bag of tricks, but he sacrificed some weapon profs and other minor class abilities for a selection of cold based spells.

[snakefing]

Yes, but I see people sacrificing two things they could get at "fourth level equivalent" to get something "eighth level equivalent".

Balancing a system like that is the hardest thing. You could do it with a fairly stringent set of prerequisites and/or feat trees. (E.g., Improved Evasion requires Evasion and +8 Refl save, to put it in SRD terms.) Or you can try to design your class abilities so you can't get that far ahead of yourself (the ability to learn level 6 spells doesn't buy you much if you don't have the spell points/slots/mana/whatever needed to cast them effectively.

But if you think balancing things like that is hard in a class-like system, try doing it in a classless system, where people can buy whatever they feel like.

[beejazz]

Again, as long as this stuff doesn't get out of control or become too complicated for character creation, I'm fine with it.

[CYMRO]

But if you think balancing things like that is hard in a class-like system, try doing it in a classless system, where people can buy whatever they feel like.

It just needs to be kept on a prereq system.

Keep up the skull sweat.

I shall return!

[Hibou]

Or, regarding CR in a point buy system, you could go all 2e on everyone and just state how much XP a standard version of a monster gives, and state what rate monster XP goes up or down when you buff or weaken them. I think this might actually encourage finding ways other than combat to defeat an enemy sometimes.

[Wensleydale]

Yup.

I personally say that the 'classless' system we're going for is good, but we should keep levels. Each level, a character gains a fixed (small) amount of points to increase stats, buy new spells etc as we're already discussing. Maybe one stat could increase how many you get per level (willpower, maybe, or perception). You can spend these however you want, but there are prerequisites for feats, abilities, etc. At 1st level there'd be more options (spontaneous/learnable casting etc)... perhaps we should choose classes, thinking about it, although classes as Beejazz told of them... not stereotypical, just 'starting packages', as you will, which begin with spontaneous casting/natural casting/book learning/find traps DC20+/extra weapon proficiencies etc etc.