The CBG System (discussions)

[Wensleydale]

Good good. I like spontaneous casting anyway, I almost always include it in ALL my caster classes.

[CYMRO]

The spontaneous/prepared thing is unnecessary.
We have magic as class features (usually handled as spell-like or supernatural abilities) and then we have magic from rituals and incantations. No need to prepare... although I like the idea of recharge times. There are some rough guidelines for that in UA.

Agreed.  Certain spells, should and must fall into a ritual category (wish comes to mind).

Classless and levelless get mu votes.

[Wensleydale]

So, for classless we have me, Cymro, Phoenix, Beejazz. For classes we have Xeviat. For levelless we have Cymro. For levels we have me, Phoenix, Beejazz, Xeviat.

[beejazz]

Classless with levels.
No one wants to have to buy saves, skills, hit points, or other mundane numerics. Let them pay whatever to decide what their HD size, skill progs, and save progs are at first level. More convenient.

[CYMRO]

[blockquote=Xeviat]I don't believe a level-less system is good; the flaw with a level-less system is that it is more difficult to run a proper challenge rating system. I'll give you all my ideas, and maybe they'll help you formulate your own:[/blockquote]

I believe this is untrue.  If monsters are created using an XP pool, then equal challenges are easier to maintain.

Multiple mental stats in such a system, or any really, are needless if you have a  mechanic for doling out spells.  

[Elrabin]

A concept I was working on, that seems like it may be what you all are kinda dancing around is a conversion of d20 Modern to fantasy gaming.

Bear with me.

So you've got your six basic classes that are each focused on the six ability scores (this may be adjusted if you decide that you don't want the six standard ability scores). Make people like the smart hero and the devoted hero have access to spellcasting in their bonus feat list, but make spellcasting in general a feat that can be purchased. So people will mix and match the six basic classes for a while, getting a level of smart hero for some extra skill points, a level of tough for some hit points and a level of fast for some defense. All the while they can be investing in spellcasting feats with their standard feats or with the bonus feat from the smart hero, or both. Make each class have a spellcasting progression, ie: "+1 for smart and devoted, +3/4 for charismatic and tough, +1/2 for fast and strong".

The fractional bonuses can be very easily represented on character sheet by four dots underneath your BAB or BSB. You fill in 3 dots per level if you have a 3/4 progression, ignore the dots and just add 1 per level to the BAB/BSB if you have +1, and fill in 2 dots per level with 1/2. Whenever you get all four dots filled in, add 1 to the score and erase the dots.

So this system would allow you the customization you want from a point buy system, but with the controlled CRs and such you get from a level-based system. No penalties for multi-classing helps a lot too.

[Hibou]

I think classlessness will work out alright with time. In 2e, it worked out ok when monsters just had amounts of XP they gave out. You just had to be more careful in what battles you started and how you approached them, as well as knowing when it was time to run and that not every battle is won through swordplay and destructive magic. I don't see why it wouldn't work here.

[beejazz]

Meh... the "ability classes" thing always bugged me a little.

[beejazz]

Ima go out on a limb and suggest the xp progression from the back of UA

[Elrabin]

Removed

[Hibou]

I'm glad to see that people don't want to have prepared casters, which is cool. I like the idea of pure spontaneous casting with the occasional ritual or casting straight from the book.

Though it looks like we might lose, I am for a class-less, level-less system. The difference between classless, leveled and class-less, level-less is that classless with levels is basically a class builder, and once you start gaining levels everything goes up at the same rate based on how many points you put in each section to start. Classless without levels lets you choose what your gained experience does for you every time you gain it.

For example, let's say a character, Anoramar, is designed under both sides. Under the leveled system, he allocates his points at 1st level so his 'class' ends up looking kind of like a paladin with arcane casting instead of divine. Every level he then gains improves his 'class' abilities at a rate determined by how much he focused in each area when he created his character.

Under a level-less system, let's say he comes out looking like an arcane paladin as well. As he amasses experience, he improves his characteristics pretty equally and buys a few neat little talents when he feels like it. Then, after one adventure, he pours all of the experience he earned into his spellcasting ability, improving his mana pool, rate of casting, and adding several moderately powerful divination spells to his repertoire. He didn't gain any ability in any other area, but he did improve the area he wanted to improve durastically in the way he wanted. He chose what the experience did for him. Of course, this can be done with levels where you get so many points each level, but then the levels aren't really required.

By the way, even with purely spontaneous/ritual/book casting, I'm still in favor of being able to increase your casting speed.

[Wensleydale]

I'm glad to see that people don't want to have prepared casters, which is cool. I like the idea of pure spontaneous casting with the occasional ritual or casting straight from the book.

Though it looks like we might lose, I am for a class-less, level-less system. The difference between classless, leveled and class-less, level-less is that classless with levels is basically a class builder, and once you start gaining levels everything goes up at the same rate based on how many points you put in each section to start. Classless without levels lets you choose what your gained experience does for you every time you gain it.

For example, let's say a character, Anoramar, is designed under both sides. Under the leveled system, he allocates his points at 1st level so his 'class' ends up looking kind of like a paladin with arcane casting instead of divine. Every level he then gains improves his 'class' abilities at a rate determined by how much he focused in each area when he created his character.

Under a level-less system, let's say he comes out looking like an arcane paladin as well. As he amasses experience, he improves his characteristics pretty equally and buys a few neat little talents when he feels like it. Then, after one adventure, he pours all of the experience he earned into his spellcasting ability, improving his mana pool, rate of casting, and adding several moderately powerful divination spells to his repertoire. He didn't gain any ability in any other area, but he did improve the area he wanted to improve durastically in the way he wanted. He chose what the experience did for him. Of course, this can be done with levels where you get so many points each level, but then the levels aren't really required.

By the way, even with purely spontaneous/ritual/book casting, I'm still in favor of being able to increase your casting speed.

Mmm, now let's change that to what I would like the classless/level thing to be... how I envision it.

Anoramor is created at 1st level. His creator decides to give him good will progression and average BAB (so many points) + divine spellcasting to level 1 + D6 HD. Anoramor's saves, hp etc increase by level, costing 1 point per level for the poor ones and 3 points per level for the good saves etc etc (he can choose NOT to improve his saves and so on if he wants for extra points). He still has points to spare after all his saves etc have been worked out at level 2, so he puts four of those points into a magical blast (i.e. Smite Evil without the alignment restriction) and another six into improving his diplomacy and spellcraft skills.

And so on. You get the picture.

[Elrabin]

The problem with a class-less or level-less system is two-fold. We're looking at it from the perspective of people who spend a lot of time thinking about this kind of thing and want to create character concepts to their fullest.

But there are two more types of people we have to take into account when creating anything. First, there are munchkins. The system has to be "break-proof" otherwise it will be broken. When creating a point-based system, you automatically lend yourself to munchkinism. (if you don't believe me, watch the video of the guy beating morrowind in 5 minutes flat)

The other kind of player you have to worry about is the idiot. Someone who doesn't really understand the rules as deeply as we do could very easily make a crappy character. Then they play and they don't realize that they aren't having fun cause they made a crappy character, they just know they aren't having fun.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

I'm failing to see why saves, BAB, skill points, hp, etc. need to go up in any sort of predetermined amount.  If you want to make a skilled character you pour your points into skills and ignore saves and BAB, and you can even pour more points into one skill and not worry about limits.  Same with BAB, saves, feats, class abilities, etc., etc.

I'm getting all this from Mutants & Masterminds.  It allows a player to pour creation points into any facet of their character that they want.  To keep things level, something called a "Power Level" is assigned beforehand to determine how many points each player gets and how high certain bonuses (such as skills, abilities, saves) can go.  So you know that no matter how many points are poured into combat-type abilities the bonus can never be higher than the Power Level.

[Wensleydale]

Because people don't WANT to spend points increasing boring numerics like that... :P

I'm still in favour of classless levels.