The CBG System (discussions)

[snakefing]

We could just buy the bonuses.  No more 10 = +0, we just have +0.  The only time when this is annoying is when an ability is drained for an odd amount, say chill touch dealing 1 point of Str damage.  So long as we make everything based on the bonuses, it'll be fine.

The only issue I have with this is, +N on what? It doesn't provide a bonus on skills. Why give combat skills bonuses for characteristics, when stealth, spell casting, etc. don't gain any such benefit?

Instead, let people just buy the bonuses they actually want. Want +10% on your carrying capacity? Buy it. Want +1 to hit? Buy it. Want +1 mana level, or increased recharge rate? You get the idea.

I'm okay with having traits that give you some specified benefits. Examples:
Trait - Quick Study: The character gains +1 bonus to all checks on any type of Knowledge skill.
This is like having a higher-than-average intelligence in some ways. But there's no suggestion that a person lacking this trait necessarily has to be dumb. They are just not a quick study.
Trait - Indefatiguable: The character gains +1 on saves to avoid fatigue, and +10% to encumbrance allowances.
This is like a combination of strength and con, but for a specific set of bonuses. If you don't have it, it doesn't mean you are weak, just that you don't have these particular bonuses.

We've pared down the characteristic list so much, that even keeping this much seems to benefit certain types of characters or certain activities that use those abilities. Why bother?

Anyway, that's not a big deal. Just have to watch out that points spent on characteristics aren't somehow more effective than points spent on other things.

[beejazz]

@Cat: Nah... this system doesn't fly with me. With my system, there are only two numbers to keep track of: What's the level of the spell? What's my highest level spell? Simple. None of these points and the erasing and the rewriting and the... POINTS. I'm willing (if reluctant) to go with point-buy character generation, if only because they don't fluctuate as much. I'm more willing for hit points, if only because they are familiar and easy to understand. But spell points? Enough with the points already! ESPECIALLY recharge points, which must be re-recorded (if spellcasting is to work) every ROUND. That's just not right.

So how do you determine how long it takes something to recharge?  # of round to recharge = spell level?  You have to keep track of the number of rounds of recharge remaining for every spell you cast.

Here's how I think yours works right alongside mana points:
Cast spell: Yours: 2d4-4 = 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Mana: Costs 2, 6 remaining
Next round: 7 rounds left, cast another 2d4-4 = 3. . . . Mana: New cost 2, add 1, 6-2+1 = 5 remaining
Next: 6 rounds left, 2 rounds left, cast 2d4-4 = 5. . . . Mana: New cost 2, add 1, 5-2+1 = 4
Next 5 rounds left, 1 rounds left, 4 left. . . . . . . . . . .Mana: no cast, add 1, 4+1 = 5

As you can see with mana points you only have to keep track of how many you are taking away and adding to a single pool during one round of time.  With yours you have to tick down each number of recharge rounds remaining for each spell.

This is a countdown. With no "new mana cost". Rather than have mana points for every spell, and then some pool, and then what you currently have left, this system has a countdown. As for using the "faces on the dice" for mana: what max 20 mana? Unlike the recharge system, this cannot scale indefinitely. Furthermore, with mana, there is never a point where your lowest level abilities become "cheap as free". Furthermore, this works better with the "tech tree" wherein lower level abilities are purchased... then higher and higher levels, depending on what you have so far. It's just plain simpler. Likewise, see my notes above on balance.

A points system I could go for is an action points in combat thing. Rather than have move actions, standard actions, etc. Every action costs a certain number of points... And you get a fixed number of points every round. None of this recharge or rates, you don't even have to keep track of what you "have left"... so long as the total actions in a round add up to x

[Numinous]

A points system I could go for is an action points in combat thing. Rather than have move actions, standard actions, etc. Every action costs a certain number of points... And you get a fixed number of points every round. None of this recharge or rates, you don't even have to keep track of what you "have left"... so long as the total actions in a round add up to x

I could deal with this.

[beejazz]

So points for combat, timekeeping... recharge magic?
PLEEEEZE?

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

This is a countdown. With no "new mana cost". Rather than have mana points for every spell, and then some pool, and then what you currently have left, this system has a countdown.

A countdown for every spell cast.  Mana points only requires you to keep track of three things in a round: amount spent, amount gained back, amount remaining for next round.  And if you don't spend anything than its only amount gained back and amount remaining for next round.  I can see where you would get confused: you'd forget that you have to add at the same time you subtract.  But I'm saying that I can't keep track of each and every spell recharging, even if it is only counting down.  How many recharges going on at once do you want us to keep track of?

Furthermore, with mana, there is never a point where your lowest level abilities become "cheap as free". Furthermore, this works better with the "tech tree" wherein lower level abilities are purchased... then higher and higher levels, depending on what you have so far. It's just plain simpler.

It is not just plain simpler, as I've said above.

[beejazz]

I never said this was for every spell individually... I said for *schools* of which most casters will only have two or three tops (for specialization's sake)

[snakefing]

As for using the "faces on the dice" for mana: what max 20 mana?

Well, if the cost of a spell is like its level, then 20 mana would in fact be a lot. Anyway, use a sticky note ferchrissake. (When I started gaming, they didn't even have sticky notes. We had to carve our hit points in our forearms.)

Anyway, my idea is 1 point recharge every minute or so. You won't be getting a lot of recharge during an encounter unless it just goes on and on. Others have proposed 1 per round, which seems like a lot but isn't obviously unbalancing.

[beejazz]

hmph. so as you buy spells, what is the rate of acquisition in your proposed system. maybe total spell points equal to spell point cost of highest level spell?

[CYMRO]

This is a countdown. With no "new mana cost". Rather than have mana points for every spell, and then some pool, and then what you currently have left, this system has a countdown.

A countdown for every spell cast.  Mana points only requires you to keep track of three things in a round: amount spent, amount gained back, amount remaining for next round.  And if you don't spend anything than its only amount gained back and amount remaining for next round.  I can see where you would get confused: you'd forget that you have to add at the same time you subtract.  But I'm saying that I can't keep track of each and every spell recharging, even if it is only counting down.  How many recharges going on at once do you want us to keep track of?

Furthermore, with mana, there is never a point where your lowest level abilities become "cheap as free". Furthermore, this works better with the "tech tree" wherein lower level abilities are purchased... then higher and higher levels, depending on what you have so far. It's just plain simpler.

It is not just plain simpler, as I've said above.

Or Option Three requires you to do as little record keeping as possible, the spell dependent system I mentioned earlier.


As far as XP goes, I have no problem with the term, it is nigh on universal and fits what we are using it for.

[beejazz]

How about detailing magic sep'rately depending on setting. hell, it worked for d20 star wars.

[snakefing]

I'd say you have to buy increases in your spell points like everything else. If it was a level-based system, I'd say +1 mana each level for pure casters. In this system, people would surely buy enough spell points for their highest level spell, maybe for two of them.

Or maybe every time you'd buy a level in a school (if in fact that's how you gain ability) you'd gain an additional +1 mana. With an option to buy more separately.

It would take some playtest to get the costing set right. The cost of increasing your mana would have to balance against the advantages of spending those points on more spells, hit points, or whatever.

I'm not dead set against your system either. Mechanically I think it is sound, I just don't much like the flavor. But even on that I could be persuaded if someone could explain to me why different schools get separate countdowns.

I'm also very open to the idea of developing variants. One of the bad things about d20 is the way that the spell casting system is so hard to change. If we do this right, it won't be so hard to have multiple variants.

[CYMRO]

How about detailing magic sep'rately depending on setting. hell, it worked for d20 star wars.

I say each one of us do a  write-up of our magic system, and we table this discussion until Sunday when we will present each one.  We should detail the basic concept, have some spells detailed, maybe an example caster, etc.

That way we can continue hammering away at the basics(stats, etc.) while the magic systems percolate.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Damage spells.  Simple enough, you pay for a basic lightning spell and you get dX damage, limited range, one use per round.  Want extra damage, you pay for the upgrade.  Want more range, ditto.
Ditto for any metamagic type effects.

How do you "pay"?

Healing spells.  Either as above, or tied to a character's VP.  Those with healing powers can heal their VP worth of damage per day.  You can buy upgrades.

I don't thinkt he amount of healing should be based on how much one has remaining at the moment themselves.  I'm all for trying to make people avoid battle, but I don't understand how you can only heal up to their max VP?  And we are trying to cut out "per day".

Other magic can fall into categories like Charms, Incantations, Rituals, etcetera that each have, depending on the individual "spell", a different # of uses per day.

Again, no "per day" stuff.  Having recharge groups based on spell type might work.

I think beejaz has finally said his position in a way I can understand: a caster only has so many groups of magic, each one having it's own recharge time and not based on the individual spell, and you can either go fewer groups for less recharge time on lower-level spells or branch out for versitility but your recharge times and number of things to keep track of goes up.  That does sound better than mana points, since all one has to do is lower a low X or less numbers on their sheet in combat.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Mechanically I think it is sound, I just don't much like the flavor. But even on that I could be persuaded if someone could explain to me why different schools get separate countdowns.

We could separate magic spells along sources of power.  Death, Divine, Elemental, etc. so that there would be a flavor.  Each time you use up power from a source you have to wait some time before you can access power from that source again.  We don't really need to stick with schools, we just need a certain number of groups (preferably few).

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Basics still to be hammered:
Whether we have Spirit stat (no one seems to be objecting to my proposed stats)
Pure bonus vs. score
How points are costed (do we stick with large amounts of XP, or do we have fewer points that apply 1-to-1 basis on things?)