Armor in D&D (Part of Xev's "Project d20 Realism")

[Matt Larkin (author)]

I think you mean it is mechanically counterproductive, not it doesn't make sense.  It certainly makes sense that it is harder to dodge in heavy, albeit probably not that much harder (-3).

A dex penalty wouldn't make sense, since armor would not make you less coordinated, just less mobile.  That is to say, should wearing a chain shirt make it significantly harder to throw a knife?  It might make the action more tiring, but that is an issue of fatigue, not dexterity.

In the situation you describe, however, the character is not worse off - he has gained DR and kept the same armor class.

[Hibou]

I've considered doing something like this for Witchcraft, perhaps removing the AC of armor entirely (as some have said previously) and either improving shields, changing BAB progressions, or something else. I've thought about the possibility of a d20 variant where if armor is only DR (and natural armor would be DR as well), BAB progressions would be more akin to what you see in 10-level PrCs, only over 20 levels: 1/2 BAB for fighter classes (resulting in +10/+5), 1/4 for average classes (resulting in +5), and 0 for sorcery classes. But that idea is fairly crazy.

Regardless, I think you're on the right track to some kickass realism, Xeviat.

[Xeviat]

This post is to talk shop; I'm trying to analyze armor in a point by point structure, similar to the way some of us have analyzed weapons. Obviously, Light armor is basic, but it does take 1 feat to wear without penalty. Likewise, Simple weapons are basic and require 1 feat to wield without penalty.

[note]Beware, this is about to get strange[/note]
In the weapon balance calculator I use, a simple weapon is worth 1 point, a martial is worth 2, and an exotic is worth 3. Thus, in such a system, a feat is worth 1 point. Without points, a medium sized weapon deals 1d4 20/x2 as a light, 1d6 20/x2 as a medium, and 1d8 20/x2 as a two-hander. A human's unarmed strike is a 1d3 20/x2 light nonlethal weapon; in my opinion, that's 2 penalties right there (lower damage die and nonlethal only), thus a weapon has 2 free points.

If one extrapolates this, equipment is worth 2 points by it's very nature of being equipment. The fact that it can be taken away or destroyed weakens it slightly (a feat can't be taken away after all).

Further expanding upon this, light armor then must be worth 3 points, just like a simple weapon. My armor system is setting out to have 2 beneficial qualities (AC and DR), and 2 negative qualities (Dodge penalty and Armor check penalty; though these penalties will probably be linked). A point of Armor AC is a feat, so it's worth one point; that's pretty simple. DR is slightly more complex: as power attack has shown us, 1 to hit is closer to 2 damage (weapon specialization backs this up as well); so it might be safe to say that 2 points of DR is a single point (does anyone disagree?).

Penalties are slightly harder to weigh, as players will accept penalties that don't penalize them too much. The Unearthed Arcana flaws are an example of how to weigh penalties. The Flaws have -1 AC as a flaw, and even though my penalty is a Dodge penalty, dodge penalties (like a negative dex) still apply while you are flat-footed. As for Armor check penalties, there is currently a flaw that gives you a -2 penalty to all physical skills; all physical skills encompasses all of the Armor Check penalty skills and concentration (could be included if arcane spell failure is changed), ride (could be included and have Mounted Combat remove the penalty, instead of doing it the way it is now), and use rope. Since that's so close, we'll use that; -1 armor check penalty is -0.5 points.

Going further still, armor can reduce speed and run speed. Halving speed is a flaw, so that's -1 point, but reducing run speed is a bit more difficult. The current run feat makes you not lose your Dex and increases your run speed, but even then it isn't enough (in my games, it makes your charge speed x3, and now it gets selected). Thus, I'm not sure how much of a penalty reducing your run speed really is unless it affects your charge speed. Going by the methods I did earlier, what would you say the penalty for reducing run speed would be? -0.5 points, or negligable?

So, if a few people think my reasoning is sound, I believe I can progress.

[snakefing]

Hmm, to evaluate run speed, start by thinking about the situations in which it matters. I begin by noting that run speed effects are greater for the heavier and bulkier armors.

Closing - When an encounter begins at distance, run speed may reduce the number of rounds before melee is engaged. Primarily important for melee-preferred characters, who will probably prefer medium and heavy armor anyway. Thus, it may actually be a fairly serious impediment to such characters. They'll definitely prefer armors that provide less run speed reduction without sacrificing DR, if available.

Fleeing and chasing - When trying to escape an encounter gone bad, run speed will affect your ability to escape or to prevent a foe from escaping. Low run speed means that melee-bound characters will have to remain engaged unless they can get some kind of aid. Higher run speed means they can escape if they can disengage.

Charging - Similar to closing, but this determines how close they have to get before they can gain the benefits of a charge.

So I think I'd say that for light armor, the fleeing/chasing is the most important effect, because characters who choose light armor might prefer to avoid melee contact. For medium and heavier armor, the closing is the most important effect, and for some characters that are optimized for charging, that might be more important.

How important are these? In my experience, fleeing and chasing scenarios are fairly rare. When they do occur, magical aid is usually preferred over pure foot speed. Closing speed can be tactically important in some cases, especially to engage spell casters. But even there, it is most important in the early stages of an encounter.

The thing to keep in mind is that these balancing considerations can't really balance things entirely. For a given type of character and given type of encounter, there will be a best type of armor. What you can hope to accomplish is to balance things so that there is at least some reason to have multiple types of armor in the game.

For any given type of armor, there is at least some type of character that might prefer that type. Specifically, different types of character value the advantages and disadvantages differently. If the various armors are reasonably close in overall points, this change in values would that type of armor to be chosen by some types of characters but not by others.

For any given type of character, there might be different types of armor that would be more appropriate in particular situations. Specifically, in particular situations, different features of the armor are more relevant, and this could change which type of armor is "best" in that situation (for that type of character).

In this sense, it might sense to assign different point values for different types of characters or different situations, to see which types of armor come out on top in each case. For example, melee-based characters vs. skill-based or missile-based. Armor against missile-wielding foes, or against high-damage melee foes, or against large numbers of foes with lower damage. DR is going to be most important against foes that attack many times with lower damage, whereas AC is going to be most important against foes with high damage. (At least within limits - if the BAB is high enough, you are just screwed anyway, regardless of DR/AC. At that point run speed becomes more important.)

[Hibou]

Being reminded, if you were ok with going hardcore complex you might want to take a look at some 2e renditions of armor and shields - different kinds were better against different kinds of attacks (don't know if anyone has already said this).

[Xeviat]

I don't like the complexity of 2E's different ACs versus different damage types. The closest thing I am considering doing is having the DR type of each armor be slightly different:

Leather offers DR/slashing: leather is soft and absorbs blunt impact, and it is firm and absorbs penetration, but cuts can penetrate it.
Chain offers DR/piercing: chain is a soft armor and thus widens blunt impact, and it is flexable enough to not be cut by blades.
Plate offers DR/bludgeoning: plate deflects both piercing and slashing attacks, but blunt attacks tend to hammer through it.

This doesn't mean these armors would be entirely worthless against said damage, as they still offer AC (which represents a deflection).

I ran my calculator on the armors in the PHB, modifying it for the difference in Max Dex. The light armors all come out balanced, but the medium and heavy armors are weak in that system's eyes. Remember, according to the game, it requires a feat to be able to use medium and heavy armor, and as of right now, those armors don't give enough oomph back to make up for their drawbacks.

I don't like Max Dex at all anymore, because it hurts characters differently.

Later today, I will post two versions of armor; one which has less DR that applies to everything, the other which has more DR but has a damage type penetration.

What I need from people now is discussion on which armor type (leather, chain, and plate) should affect skills the most.

PS: Snake, so are you saying that running could be tied to charging?

[Hibou]

Hmm... makes me wonder actually... perhaps you could give each armor a base AC bonus, and give it DR or additional AC to specific types of attacks (piercing, bludgeoning, slashing), or even penalties to some.

EDIT: A little too late, lol.

[Hibou]

Well, for starters, any armor that has to be custom-fitted (such as Ishmayl mentioned) shouldn't make things any worse than crappier armors, and might even make it better (you could handle full plate as only slightly better than regular plate in terms of AC/DR, but the penalties it gives wouldn't be as bad).

Perhaps it shouldn't be a matter so much of what type of armor it is, but how strong/agile the character is who wears the armor. Str/Dex requirements might be in order, where if your character doesn't have enough Str/Dex (hell even Con would work if you perceive it as stamina), as certain materials and armor weights are gonna tie you down. That's already in the form of ACPs, but...

[Xeviat]

I've been looking into handling the speed penalties similarly to the Armor Check Penalties; an armor check penalty applies a penalty to certain skills (all str or dex based), which can be negated or overcame by a high str or dex score; even though the penalties can be effectively negated, you are still better off without anything.

D&D's speed system is not augmented by ability scores at all, and it is only reduced once you reach a medium load. Common sense says that armor should probably only reduce your speed if you're put into your medium load, but this slightly flys into the face of convention: wearing 50 pounds of armor should slow everyone down, if only a little bit.

Also, changing the way the speed and ACPs are applied, as in having them not apply universally, is harder to balance in my opinion.

Right now, I'm building the armors following the notion that all light armors have the same penalties (none), all medium armors have the same (-1 Dodge, -4 ACP, -1/3rd speed), and all heavies have same (-2 Dodge, -8 ACP, -1/3rd speed and run/charge reduction). But the problem with this is that the armors are not differentiated enough, I don't think. Sure, I have the AC and DR applied being the same, but I'm not sure if this leaves the "skill armor" out of the equasion.

Should I strive for diversity or fairness?

[Johnny Wraith]

Should I strive for diversity or fairness?

Diversity... with fairness. If you look at weapons (and I'm sure you have), you can see how you have a large amount of them that can do different things (Deal more damage, reach, able to trip with it, etc), that's really the beauty of that weapon system. I've read most of this thread, but not all... I'll reply later with more imput. I just wanted to answer that question.

[Xeviat]

I'm anxiously awaiting your answer.

[Ra-Tiel]

I've been looking into handling the speed penalties similarly to the Armor Check Penalties; an armor check penalty applies a penalty to certain skills (all str or dex based), which can be negated or overcame by a high str or dex score; even though the penalties can be effectively negated, you are still better off without anything.

D&D's speed system is not augmented by ability scores at all, and it is only reduced once you reach a medium load. Common sense says that armor should probably only reduce your speed if you're put into your medium load, but this slightly flys into the face of convention: wearing 50 pounds of armor should slow everyone down, if only a little bit.

Also, changing the way the speed and ACPs are applied, as in having them not apply universally, is harder to balance in my opinion.

Right now, I'm building the armors following the notion that all light armors have the same penalties (none), all medium armors have the same (-1 Dodge, -4 ACP, -1/3rd speed), and all heavies have same (-2 Dodge, -8 ACP, -1/3rd speed and run/charge reduction). But the problem with this is that the armors are not differentiated enough, I don't think. Sure, I have the AC and DR applied being the same, but I'm not sure if this leaves the "skill armor" out of the equasion.

Should I strive for diversity or fairness?

Xeviat, just a suggestion. In one of your earlier posts (IIRC) you mentioned that you dislike the fact that max Dex penalizes characters differently. But from what I've read from your last post you generally reduce speed by certain increments ("-1/3rd speed"). This would actually penalize a character with a higher speed (say a human barbarian; speed 40ft, -1/3rd -> ~26ft, difference 14ft) more than characters with a lower speed (say dwarven fighter; speed 20ft, -1/3rd -> ~13, difference 7ft).

Why not make it so that for every 2 or 3 points of ACP the character takes a -5ft penalty to speed? You could cap the speed penalty at some point (like -10 or -15 ft), and make all additional penalties reduce running/charging speed.

[table=Example armors]
[tr][th]Armor[/th]           [th]ACP[/th] [th]Speed penalty[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Padded[/td]          [td]0[/td]   [td]0[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Leather[/td]         [td]0[/td]   [td]0[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Studded leather[/td] [td]-1[/td]  [td]0[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Chain shirt[/td]     [td]-2[/td]  [td]0[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Hide[/td]            [td]-3[/td]  [td]-5ft[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Scale mail[/td]      [td]-4[/td]  [td]-5ft[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Chainmail[/td]       [td]-5[/td]  [td]-10ft[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Breastplate[/td]     [td]-4[/td]  [td]-5ft[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Splint mail[/td]     [td]-7[/td]  [td]-10ft / run x3[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Banded mail[/td]     [td]-6[/td]  [td]-10ft[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Half-plate[/td]      [td]-7[/td]  [td]-10ft / run x3[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Full-plate[/td]      [td]-6[/td]  [td]-10ft[/td][/tr]
[/table]

[Xeviat]

Here's my first attempt. This DR is DR/crit, which means it blocks all physical damage unless it comes from a critical hit (if you're using VP/WP, I suggest having DR apply to WP damage as well). This DR was priced 1 point for 1 point; I'll make a different version with the alternate pricing with the DR applying differently for different armors.

Tell me what you think.

[table=Armor 2.0]
[tr][td]Light[/td][td]Cost[/td][td]AC[/td][td]DR[/td][td]-Dodge[/td][td]ACP[/td][td]Wt.[/td][td]Speed[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Leather[/td][td]10[/td][td]2[/td][td]1[/td][td]0[/td][td]-1[/td][td]10[/td][td]1/1[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Light Chain[/td][td]50[/td][td]1[/td][td]2[/td][td]0[/td][td]-1[/td][td]20[/td][td]1/1[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Medium[/td][td]Cost[/td][td]AC[/td][td]DR[/td][td]-Dodge[/td][td]ACP[/td][td]Wt.[/td][td]Speed[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Heavy Leather[/td][td]30[/td][td]4[/td][td]4[/td][td]-1[/td][td]-4[/td][td]25[/td][td]1/3[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Chain[/td][td]150[/td][td]3[/td][td]5[/td][td]-1[/td][td]-4[/td][td]35[/td][td]1/3[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Light Plate[/td][td]200[/td][td]5[/td][td]3[/td][td]-1[/td][td]-4[/td][td]40[/td][td]1/3[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Heavy[/td][td]Cost[/td][td]AC[/td][td]DR[/td][td]-Dodge[/td][td]ACP[/td][td]Wt.[/td][td]Speed[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Heavy Chain[/td][td]450[/td][td]5[/td][td]8[/td][td]-2[/td][td]-7[/td][td]45[/td][td]1/3*[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Plate[/td][td]800[/td][td]8[/td][td]5[/td][td]-2[/td][td]-7[/td][td]50[/td][td]1/3*[/td][/tr][/table]

[Xeviat]

Bump. Still need opinions guys.

[Hibou]

I think it looks pretty good, and it being a little more generic than normal is nice. Have you done much playtesting? I'm starting to wonder if more protection should be offered by medium in comparison to light, and heavy in comparison to medium considering the penalties they give, but I'm not sure.