Hubris [Discuss]

[Numinous]

This is the discussion thread for Hubris.  Post away, and I will respond.

[Raelifin]

[blockquote=Crit]So, the gods created a perfect land, and a perfect race to inhabit it.[/blockquote]
All good. A lot of stories start this way.

After the mortals reached such great prosperity as they could, they denounced the gods themselves and declared themselves independent of their will.

So, prosperity = technology... This is a high-tech world? Or is it more post-apocalyptic now?

Enraged by this betrayal, they sent down to the Paradise a terrible plague, so deadly that men fell in the streets. Many of the people, scared for their lives, sought to repent and make peace with the divinities of the world. The gods granted their request, by granting them the essence of the rat, the carrier and survivor of the plague. However, this salvation came with a stigmata, as the people carried the fur, tails, and frail frame of these rodents forevermore.

This indicates fairly high divine involvement.

As those stricken with the disease saw these survivors, they declared them traitors to their kind, and sough to destroy them. Forced to flee from civilization, they went into hiding in the holes and dark places of the world for many years. Now, two Ages past, they have come forth to take their place in a new world.

Is this setting from the perspective of the rat-men? They seem to be the focus of the setting so far. :P

Now, let's talk about Tone and Magic.
Why couldn't magic protect the people? Was this plague incurable or were the "faithful" clerics untouched? The deities seem kinda mad throughout all of this. Are there clerics at all? Or do you have a huge magic system which throws off everything (like Phae.)

Tone is also important. You talk about plagues and hubris being big ethos markers, but is the setting going to be gritty, hopeful, dark, magical, mundane, human, what?

[Soup Nazi]

Why couldn't magic protect the people? Was this plague incurable or were the "faithful" clerics untouched? The deities seem kinda mad throughout all of this. Are there clerics at all? Or do you have a huge magic system which throws off everything (like Phae.)

I personally feel that clerics devoted to the gods, even those capable of curing the plague (namely those with access to 3rd level spells, which shouldn't be a substantial portion of the population anyway), probably wouldn't. If the plague was sent by the gods, how could a cleric devoted to his deity cure it at all? I would think defiance of your deity's will, would result in the loss of your divine spellcasting ability.

Not to mention a plague of this scope, afflicting thousands (maybe even hundreds of thousands) would be too much for the clerics to stop, even if the gods did permit them to save a limited number of the faithful with divine spells. Think of a lone missionary, travelling to town with 10,000 people dying from the plague. How he could he possible hope to cure them all faster than the plague spreads to the remaining population, and how long do those afflicted actually survive, before they succumb to the plague and die? probabaly not long enough for his limited alotment of 3rd level spells to be of any substantial effect.

I do concur however, on your other points, and would also like to know what Tony's response will be. This has the makings of something quite interesting.

-Peace-

[Numinous]

So, the gods created a perfect land, and a perfect race to inhabit it.[/blockquote]
All good. A lot of stories start this way.

After the mortals reached such great prosperity as they could, they denounced the gods themselves and declared themselves independent of their will.[/blockquote]

Enraged by this betrayal, they sent down to the Paradise a terrible plague, so deadly that men fell in the streets. Many of the people, scared for their lives, sought to repent and make peace with the divinities of the world. The gods granted their request, by granting them the essence of the rat, the carrier and survivor of the plague. However, this salvation came with a stigmata, as the people carried the fur, tails, and frail frame of these rodents forevermore.[/blockquote]

Is this setting from the perspective of the rat-men? They seem to be the focus of the setting so far. :P

Was this plague incurable or were the "faithful" clerics untouched?

Tone is also important. You talk about plagues and hubris being big ethos markers, but is the setting going to be gritty, hopeful, dark, magical, mundane, human, what?[/quote]I'm not sure what tone I'm going for yet.  basically, society has been rebuilding for years now, and is just beginning to enter a period of heavy cultural diffusion, the start of industrialisation, and the recognising of ethics in a uniform way by the people of the ruined paradise.

Hehe.  I love my new setting.

[Soup Nazi]

As you already know through IM, I am really digging the bare-bones concepts here so far. Terrible plagues sweeping across the world, and the aftermath and rebuilding process is a fantastic base as far as I'm concerned. I would like to know what kind of time frame we are discussing here though. How long did the people of Paradise (for lack of a better name thus far), live in defiance of the gods before they were smiten from above? How long did the plagues ravage the world before they were brought under control, and are they even under control? I think it would great if the plague still troubles certain regions, and even the gods have lost control over it...

Do the people of the world, know for certain that it was gods who sent the plague to destroy them, or do they attribute it to nature and other phenomenon. As a people who cast off the gods (presumable in favor of science and technology, though I may be extrapolating too much here), have they even made the connection? I can see faithful clerics in the streets warning of impending disaster, and people dismissing them as crazy zealots.

Are there quarentined zones, abondoned cities, colonies of infected people (like the old lepper colonies), and similar things, or has it been long enough, that people have begun to move foreward again? Fear and paranoia could be great atmospheric elements in this setting if you want them to be.

On to the rat-people. From what I know so far, that rat people seem to be the favored of the gods, "blessed" with immunity to the plagues. This leads me to wonder, are the rat-people viewed as holy men or monsters. The so-called "blessing" they received seems like a double-edged sword, used to save them, but also to test their faith. I think greater detail on the nature of their religious beliefs, and their relationship with the gods would benefit the setting tremendously.

There was some mention of humanity persecuting against the rat-people, perhaps blaming them for the plagues, or hating them for their resiliency. What is the nature of this persecution, and how have the rat people reacted. Did they flee to places where the plague was spiraling out of control to escape their persecution, do they fight back, or do they cower in the shadows outnumbered by their enemies? I'm getting the feeling of nazi-style witch hunts and labor camps, filled with half-starved, flee-infested rat people; is this the kind of persecution you mean, or something different altogether?

When you get to the gods themselves, try to keep them vague and mysterious. I think this setting would benefit greatly from varied interpretations of divine will, religious debate, and heated factions revering the same gods. A strong organized church would undermine many of your key concepts, and the general level of tension you have established thus far.

We discussed some interesting bits about the gods through IM, but I will refrain from commenting upon them until there is something posted. It will do no good for us to engage in a forum-based conversation on a subject that nobody else can contribute to. So get cracking, and post a little bit about them too, so I can delve into an aspect of the setting that has tremendous promise...

Good stuff so far. Seriously though, take your time, think things out fully, and post them when you're ready. I'll be eagerly awaiting more until then.

-nasty-

[Jürgen Hubert]

OK, since there's not much material to review it yet, I'll just post some comments that come into my head...

- First of all, is this the "true" history of the world, or what the survivors believe to be true? Even if it is the former, you might wish to create some "alternate theories" about what happened back then - it's always a good idea to keep the players wondering.

- How fast did the plague spread, and how fast did it kill? I'm assuming that it worked relatively slowly, or else there would have been no reason to flee underground - there would have been no one to persecute them. This also affects what kinds of artifacts and writings they will find related to the plague - the longer it takes to kill, the more will be there to be found.

- The fact that the ratmen spent such a long time underground implies that there is a very strong taboo against going overground in their culture. Presumably, most of them still live below the surface and see those who venture above the ground as "renegades" and refuse to associate with them...

- Surely those who succumbed to the plague and did not repent had some alternate plan for dealing with the plague? They must have assumed that there was some possibility of a cure, or else they too would have repented out of fear. I suggest leaving evidence of all sorts of magical experiments that attempted to cure the plague. I also suspect that many attempted to become undead...

Hey, maybe that explains why the ratmen stayed underground - the surface was full of undead and their kingdoms! Perhaps only now have the undead been reduced in number significantly to make it safe to go there...

It also could explain why the gods gave clerics the ability to turn undead - because "undead" pretty much equalled "unfaithful who doesn't know when to lie down and stay dead" in those times.

- If gods are dependent on the number of their followers, the obliterating those followers was a very daft thing to do. Unless, of course, the gods themselves did not know about this little factoid until it was too late. This has some interesting implications for the cosmology of the setting. How did the gods came into being, and why hadn't they realized it before the plague?


Anyway, I hope this helps.

[Numinous]

Do the people of the world, know for certain that it was gods who sent the plague to destroy them, or do they attribute it to nature and other phenomenon. As a people who cast off the gods (presumable in favor of science and technology, though I may be extrapolating too much here), have they even made the connection? I can see faithful clerics in the streets warning of impending disaster, and people dismissing them as crazy zealots.

On to the rat-people. From what I know so far, that rat people seem to be the favored of the gods, "blessed" with immunity to the plagues. This leads me to wonder, are the rat-people viewed as holy men or monsters. The so-called "blessing" they received seems like a double-edged sword, used to save them, but also to test their faith. I think greater detail on the nature of their religious beliefs, and their relationship with the gods would benefit the setting tremendously.[/quote]
When you get to the gods themselves, try to keep them vague and mysterious. I think this setting would benefit greatly from varied interpretations of divine will, religious debate, and heated factions revering the same gods. A strong organized church would undermine many of your key concepts, and the general level of tension you have established thus far.[/quote]
We discussed some interesting bits about the gods through IM, but I will refrain from commenting upon them until there is something posted. It will do no good for us to engage in a forum-based conversation on a subject that nobody else can contribute to. So get cracking, and post a little bit about them too, so I can delve into an aspect of the setting that has tremendous promise...

Good stuff so far. Seriously though, take your time, think things out fully, and post them when you're ready. I'll be eagerly awaiting more until then.

-nasty-
[/quote]  I'm working on posting some more soon, and hopefully the answers I've provided will give a little insight into the setting.

[Numinous]

- First of all, is this the "true" history of the world, or what the survivors believe to be true? Even if it is the former, you might wish to create some "alternate theories" about what happened back then - it's always a good idea to keep the players wondering.

- The fact that the ratmen spent such a long time underground implies that there is a very strong taboo against going overground in their culture. Presumably, most of them still live below the surface and see those who venture above the ground as "renegades" and refuse to associate with them...[/quote]
Hey, maybe that explains why the ratmen stayed underground - the surface was full of undead and their kingdoms! Perhaps only now have the undead been reduced in number significantly to make it safe to go there...

It also could explain why the gods gave clerics the ability to turn undead - because "undead" pretty much equalled "unfaithful who doesn't know when to lie down and stay dead" in those times.[/quote]
Anyway, I hope this helps.[/quote]  Indeed, it has, and thank you for the review.

[Xathan]

Ok, some random thoughts for this:

What was the primary vector for the disease? Rats, as was illuded to earlier, or something else? If it's just rats, how did they transfer the disease to humans? Was it contagious human(oid) to human(oid)? Did it affect any other creatures, and how so?

Also, as a more generic thing, I'd love to see more of the pantheon as is. You've dropped tantalizing hints over AIM, I want more juciy bits. :D

That's it for now, I'll poke you more about this over AIM when you return.

[Raelifin]

All your cities need to talk about the people more.

Fort Crown: "A militaristic settlement, populated by soldiers, their families, and those who fulfil their needs, the grim mark it leaves on the mountains can be seen for miles, and is often feared by those who pass too close."
Who runs the military? How does it survive if it's avoided? (This is implied by "feared by those who pass too close") Why was the fort created? Why is it special (aside from doing a wonderful job at defining tone)?

Blackwater Port is a port, right? You seem to fail to mention any docks. How can a port town be centered around a nexus? Wouldn't it be lumped against the water?

Dawnspire: Well, if this is happy-happy land, why wouldn't people want to leave? The whole thing seems to lack the creepyness factor that most of Hubris has. Maybe some hint as to what "nothing is as it seems" means? Wouldn't a major population center be the first thing to get hit by a plague?


On a side note, if you take of the "h" and move the "r," Hubris becomes Urbis. ^_^

[HyveMynd]

bah! other people beat me to it, and probably did a better job with all the questions too, but oh well. here goes...

Fort Crown: firstly, if the city is ONLY soldiers why would anyone want to try and attack it? that's just asking for a whole lotta trouble. maybe if the city had some great and much needed resource or a vastly powerful secret, but otherwise i don't see a reason for it repelling siege after siege. secondly, SOMEONE would rise to power in the city just from the nature of soldiers. fighting men are trained to follow orders, and if there isn't anyone to give them orders the whole thing breaks down. in the absence of a king, governer, or other goverment official the most senior ranking officer would probably take control of the city. he/she would title themselves something that sounds fair and honest (like protectorate, defender, or stewart) but in fact rule like a complete tyrant. there also would most likely be a HUGE deliniation between high ranking officers and normal grunts. since the current leader/ruler came to power through his/her rank, anyone that comes close to that rank is going to be an automatic threat. meaning that they would want to keep everyone else in the city much lower on the totem pole.

Blackwater Port: the problem of a port with a central design plan and no mention of water got me thinking... what if the "ports" were somehow located ABOVE rather than on the water? for example, the city could be built on huge supports in the middle of a huge lake (kind of like laketown in the hobbit). that way the ships have to travel under it to get to the center of town. there'd be all kinds of openings leading down through the decking to the water below. perfect for all kinds of underhanded dealings. or the central opening of the city leads down to an underground sea or river system that connects to the rest of the world. you can't get the ships up to the city, so you'd have to have an elaborate system of cranes and pulleys to get the cargo up onto land. the shaft leading down would most likely be riddled with all kinds of seedy dockworker pubs, shady shops, and other places scum would hang out. in otherwords, perfect for an adventurering party's base of operations.

Dawnspire: i heartily echo Raelifin's "lack of creepiness factor" statement. a "perfect little happy-happy place with a dark secret" lends itself more to an adventure hook than a major campaign location in my opinion. mainly because it seems unlikely to me that the PCs would single handedly uncover the secret of an entire major city. especially since there are thousands (if not millions) of other people there already, and have been for some time now. SOMEONE other than the PCs would have stumbled onto SOMETHING by now and blown the whistle on the operation, right? and even if the PCs DID expose the city's awful secret, you would have to be prepared to completely rewrite the setting as ALL of dawnspires inhabitants fled to the other major citys to escape. or maybe that's what you want to happen. it DOES make for a good long term campaign idea if you choose to go that route. and the point about someone else already knowing the secret (or atleast part of it) is a great springboard for creating several secret organizations that are trying to expose things from the inside. as far as the secret itself goes, you need something that matches the dark tone of the rest of the world. something obvious to everyone that keeps dawnspire from becoming the center of civilization. otherwise, as others have said, the other cities and towns would eventually be completely empty. you probably know what the secret is already, but it should be something like people just disappearing for no reason on a regular basis (like 1 a day even). or some really dangerous THING (or things) roams the streets at night, killing anyone it (they) come across. it needs to be big, something that forces the citizens of the city to chose between paradise and scratching out a living in one of the other population centers.

that got WAY longer than i thought it would be. hope some of it helps, and i can't wait to read more about your setting. keep it coming.

[Raelifin]

Blackwater Port: the problem of a port with a central design plan and no mention of water got me thinking... what if the "ports" were somehow located ABOVE rather than on the water? for example, the city could be built on huge supports in the middle of a huge lake (kind of like laketown in the hobbit).

Dawnspire: i heartily echo Raelifin's "lack of creepiness factor" statement. a "perfect little happy-happy place with a dark secret" lends itself more to an adventure hook than a major campaign location in my opinion. mainly because it seems unlikely to me that the PCs would single handedly uncover the secret of an entire major city. especially since there are thousands (if not millions) of other people there already, and have been for some time now. SOMEONE other than the PCs would have stumbled onto SOMETHING by now and blown the whistle on the operation, right?[/quote]
Not if the secret's exposure would have negative effect. ;) I mean, these people enjoy their lives here, why should you go and ruin that. I'm thinking that it's a political entity of questionable nature (Phsaedonai in Phaedoras, The Myzrannic Principality in Red Valor) or it's a resource/boon of questionable nature (no examples come to mind).

Sorry for any spelling errors. I'm slepy. ;)

[Seraph]

- Surely those who succumbed to the plague and did not repent had some alternate plan for dealing with the plague? They must have assumed that there was some possibility of a cure, or else they too would have repented out of fear. I suggest leaving evidence of all sorts of magical experiments that attempted to cure the plague. I also suspect that many attempted to become undead...

I like this idea.  The idea of magical experiments to try to cure the plague makes me think of the alchemists in my own campaign who experiment with chemicals and with magic to attempt to understand life.  The plague would give it an interesting spin, as they would have a concrete incentive to figure out how the secrets of life.  This could also have an interesting theo-political implication: The use of alchemy by the unfaithful as an attempt to escape the gods' punishment would be viewed as an act against the gods, an act of heresy.  This could then be easily expanded to make the act of alchemy heresy in and of itself.  Bam!  You now have a new conflict to deal with, with lots of potential for campaign arcs.

[Raelifin]

So, are the plagueborn humans or ratfolk?
What are all these "races"?
Are they based on blood, chance or personality?
Why are the "shadows" so praised, is black the new white?

[Numinous]

@Seraphine: Something like that.  The science of Arcane magic was largely lost during the Sickening, but those who still practiced sought to use it as a protection against the plague.  I'm seriously debating whether undead were the main affront to the Great One, or whether undead were first created after the plague as a means of defeating it, or even created by the plague itself.

@ Raelifin: I will answer briefly, hopefully more verbose answers will be added to the content thread soon.

- They are a twisted race born out of the Sickening.  Bearing Man's form, but not his beauty.  They have black skin, and Large eyes filled with grim knowledge of how much misery truly does exist in the world.

- The races are each a people created by the Great One, and fill similar roles as the races in other settings.  Each except the plague-born exemplify a particular trait of The Everything.  Whether it's Strength, Intelligence, Beauty, etc.
- All but the Shadows are based on blood, as it is hereditary traits that determine the race of any character.
- The shadows are not the dark in the corner in this particular case, but a pale reflection of the Great One's own glory.  Born rarely from any race, they are renowned for their great beauty and tendency to lead exciting lives.