FATE: I Don't Get It

[Xathan]

Which frustrates me to no end. I'm the group's rules expert, generally speaking, and it takes me very little time to learn a new system...but I've been bashing my head against FATE for hours now and just don't get it. Pyramids? Aspects? Fudge? What? I don't even know what questions to ask - I feel like someone who just finished pre-algebra being given a calculus book - I don't know how to ask the right questions to have this system make sense to me, and it's frustrating the hell out of me because I think I'd love the system if I got it.

Can someone explain the system to me in terms an idiot would understand? Because when it comes to FATE, that's apparently what I become.

[Lmns Crn]

I will gladly give you a total run-down later, when I have time. (In the meanwhile, maybe some of the explanations I've typed for previous FATE threads will be useful to you?)

I am hoping to run some FATE games on the site pretty soonish (this summer?), so you will have the opportunity before long to try it firsthand, if you so choose.

[Xathan]

There's a good chance I'll take you up on that! I figured you'd respond to this thread, being the resident FATE expert and all.

I've tried reading your explanations and they do make more sense than what I've found in the SRD, but more than explain things to me they've just made me really, really want to play FATE...hence why I got frustrated enough to post this thread, because reading your stuff made me want to play in this system so badly it's not even funny.

[Lmns Crn]

D'awww, making me blush ovah heah

[Nomadic]

You should really change your name to Fateinous Crayon... or Luminous Fateon.

[Xathan]

I like Luminous Fateon. Also, if I make a game with FATE and try and sell it, I'm totally hiring you to promote the system, LC. :P

[Superfluous Crow]

He could write the foreword :p
Anyway, I assume you know D&D so we might be able to cook it down to that. Sort of.
D&D almost always adds numbers together. You roll and add an ability bonus or a skill bonus and so on. FATE is a bit more flexible. FUDGE dice are special dice which generate numbers between -4 and 4, so in FATE you can risk both subtraction and addition with the average being zero. So on an average roll you are as good as your raw skill bonus says you are. So that explains the freaky FUDGE dice.
Now, the major difference between FATE and D&D et al. is that more of the narrative depends on the player and there is more back-and-forth between the individual players and the GM. This is primarily due to the twice-blessed-twice-damned aspects that make FATE what it is.
FATE ditches ability scores in favor of descriptions, because that is essentially what an aspect is: a short phrase that says something about a character. It doesn't matter what this phrase is, it is all about what associations you and the GM have to it.
Whenever there is a scene where either the player or the GM thinks the aspect applies they can call it out. This is called either Invoking or Compelling, depending on whether it is to the character's benefit or works against him. The important part is that even if the aspect is compelled (the bad thing) the player gets something: a fate point. And fate points are pretty much the most important ressource a player can get his hands on. Some "feats" (read: stunts) require them, but mostly you just need them when you invoke your aspects (use them for good) as that single fate point translates into a lot of nifty bonusses.
So in FATE you are always looking for ways to use your aspects to your advantage and the GM is always looking for ways to get you into trouble with the very same aspects. When the aspect might get you into trouble (say, you are Greedy and your good friend is desperate to buy a book from you) the GM can try to compel you to be greedy in return for that fate point, but you can always choose to act against your nature, but then you don't get anything in return except less trouble.  
Hope that helped a little.
           

[Lmns Crn]

The FATE SRD is, in many ways, very confusingly organized. Collating the scattered information was one of the big hurdles in front of me when I was building up the Jade FATE wiki.

Pyramids? Aspects? Fudge? What?

Okay.

Pyramids are just the skills on your character sheet. In some (but not all) FATE-based games, you have a single "best skill" at the top of the pyramid, then two skills at the level below that, then three skills at the level below that, and the pattern continues until the "base" of the pyramid, where the skills are at Average (+1). Any skill that's not on the pyramid is rolled at Mediocre (+0); these are the equivalent of your "untrained skills".

Here's a sample pyramid for a Spirit of the Century character, where the pyramid goes up to Superb (+5):

Superb (+5): Rapport
Great (+4): Resolve, Alertness
Good (+3): Deceit, Empathy, Fists
Fair (+2): Endurance, Investigation, Drive, Survival
Average (+1): Gambling, Guns, Athletics, Burglary, Intimidation

Good (+3): Presence
Fair (+2): Weapons, Bureaucracy
Average (+1): Rapport, Scholarship, Alertness[/quote]Fudge[/b] is a totally different game that predates FATE. They use the same dice, which are referred to as "fudge dice", because Fudge-the-game was the first one to use them.

A fudge die is six-sided, with two minus signs, two plus signs, and two blank sides. Every roll in FATE uses four such dice. (Usually, you are rolling four dice and adding your skill. So if the top example character (the SotC example) rolls his Fists skill (which is +3), he starts with the three and adds four dice. He may end up anywhere between Poor (-1) if he rolls ---- and Epic (+7) if he rolls ++++, but most results cluster around the middle of that range.)

Aspects are the anchors that the story-driving currency (Fate Points) hook into. Aspects are descriptive tags. Anything can have its own aspects (characters, scenes, objects, locations, entire stories... you name it). Aspects can have multiple effects, some positive, some negative.

When you want to use an aspect to help you, it goes like this: pay a Fate Point, and either add +2 to your roll, or reroll the dice. (It's that easy!) You can do this with your own aspects ("I'm a Good-Hearted Person, which is certain to help me impress those nuns and orphans!"), or with aspects on someone/something else ("The back of the opera house is full of Deep Shadows, which will make it easier for me to sneak around!", or "Steve is all about his girlfriend Marie, so if I threaten her, that's sure to get his attention!") Because the basic mechanics of FATE are pretty broad and general, aspects are good for making different situations feel different, and they're also good for getting players to interact with specific elements of their environment, NPCs, their own characters, and each other.

Aspects can also be compelled, which works like this: the ST offers a player a Fate Point along with an aspect compel. The player can accept that FP, with the knowledge that doing so means the aspect in question is going to make his life more complicated, or he can refuse the FP and spend an FP of his own, in order to keep his aspects from getting him in trouble. So if Jim has an aspect like Anger Management Issues, the ST can compel that aspect whenever something happens that might provoke that anger, if it seems like Jim blowing his top might be interesting in the story. The normal english translation for such a compel is essentially: "I'll give you a Fate Point if your character gets angry enough to do something rash; otherwise, you have to give me a Fate Point."

So as a player, by accepting your compels, you accumulate Fate Points. Then you can turn around and spend those FPs to use Aspects to help you, or to make declarations, or to activate any special powers you might have that require FPs to use, etc. Basically, you have a hard time doing cool stuff unless your aspects are causing you problems (because that's the only way you gain FPs). Which means players have the incentive to build characters with interesting flaws.

...Does that help?

[SDragon]

This thread makes a lot more sense than the rather intimidating SRD. If there's ever an IRC game, I'd love to watch, in order to get a better understanding of the system. I might even sit in for a game or two.

[Xathan]

Actually, that helps a ton - I feel I have a much better grasp of the system right now and can see why you like it so much - it has much the same appeal to me as MnM with even less restrictions, and it's something I fully intend on trying on one of my games now that I get it.

I guess the next things I have trouble understanding are how supernatural abilities (magic especially - anything that is inherently versatile) work and how damage is handled - it seems to be something similar to Mutants and Mastermind's toughness system, but I don't think that analogy is perfectly suited. Also, how would you handle "races" in FATE - especially ones that inherently have abilities drastically different from humans?

On a side note, Aspects now make perfect sense - again, by analogy, they're pretty much complications from mutants and masterminds with a bit more limitation and a few added elements - I might, next time I run MnM, alter complications to function exactly like aspects. The only thing I don't like is that you have to spend a fate point to avoid being compelled - when I write up a variation on the FATE system (I'm probably going to do both that and a modification of d20 for every setting now), I might alter that rule where there's some penalty for resisting a compelled, but you have the option of spending that fate point or accepting the penalty (minor enough to not utterly cripple your character, but strong enough to matter - something equivalent to becoming fatigued in d20.)

[Lmns Crn]

Actually, that helps a ton - I feel I have a much better grasp of the system right now and can see why you like it so much - it has much the same appeal to me as MnM with even less restrictions, and it's something I fully intend on trying on one of my games now that I get it.

I guess the next things I have trouble understanding are how supernatural abilities (magic especially - anything that is inherently versatile) work and how damage is handled - it seems to be something similar to Mutants and Mastermind's toughness system, but I don't think that analogy is perfectly suited. Also, how would you handle "races" in FATE - especially ones that inherently have abilities drastically different from humans?[/quote]Magic and Powers, etc:[/b] Stunts are your various character special powers. Anything that bends the normal rules of the game is a stunt. Most characters have several.

Some stunts give particular bonuses in certain situations (i.e., a "Flawless Parry" stunt that gives me a bonus when using swordplay defensively, or a "Doctor of Psychology" stunt that gives me specialized knowledge and probably also helps me schmooze with academics or leverage my reputation socially).

Some stunts represent things, allies, or other "stuff you have" (i.e., a wealthy character might have a stunt (or three) to represent his mansion and all its wondrous features and contents, and/or a stunt to represent his loyal and unusually capable butler, or a character with a fantastic magic sword might have a stunt representing the sword's mystical powers-- note that all these possessions really work best when they're represented by both a stunt and an aspect).

And some stunts give you totally new abilities that you didn't have before, and that people without the stunt can't even attempt. (i.e., a "Pyromancer" stunt that lets you use your Sorcery skill to control fire and even make attacks with it, where people without that kind of stunt can only use Sorcery as a knowledge skill that reflects how much they know about magic-- it takes a stunt to actually do the magic.) If you look on the Jade FATE Wiki, my Mysteries skill has five different collections of magic user stunts, to represent five distinct magical traditions. Maybe some of those will give you useful ideas?

Damage has maybe the biggest learning curve, but it's worth it. Basically, when you are in a conflict with someone, you want that character to either concede (i.e., lose the conflict by voluntarily leaving it), or be taken out (i.e., lost the conflict by getting one's ass kicked). Either way, the players describe how that happened. The difference is that if someone concedes, they get to describe how they lost, but if they get taken out, their victor describes how they lost (and might not be gentle). So when the stakes are high, there's a tense decision to be made: should I take the easy way out by conceding, because if I tough it out, I might win, but I also might suffer a lot.

The way you sort all this out is stress and consequences. Everybody has multiple stress tracks (one for physical stress, one for social/emotional stress, etc. It varies from game to game. Diaspora even has a financial stress box, with the idea that characters can use skills like Brokerage and Assets to run financial conflicts, but that's just an example of what unusual directions you can go with this if you're so inclined.)

Stress does not work like hit points. See how it is a row of boxes? They are numbered, from left to right, from 1 to whatever. Each box represents one "hit", and the higher-numbered ones are the capacity to withstand more serious hits.

Let's say you and me are in a sword duel, and you attack me. You roll Weapons to attack, and get a result of Great (+4), and I roll Weapons to defend, and get a result of Fair (+2). Your result is two steps higher than mine, so you hit me for two points.

Since I am hit, I have to mark off a stress box. If I cannot, I am immediately taken out (which means you, Xathan, since you defeated me, get to decide exactly how I lose. You might decide I surrender, or that I'm knocked unconscious, or even that I die from a fatal sword wound. So I don't want to get taken out!)

Let's say I have three physical stress boxes:
O O O

You hit me for two points, so I have to mark the second box, or a higher one:
O X O

Okay, if that's all that happens in the whole fight, I might be okay (stress is temporary and goes away at the end of the scene-- physical stress might represent fatigue or minor bruises, but as soon as we catch our breaths, it all vanishes). But if we skip ahead to your next turn and you hit me for another two-point hit (let's say, your attack is Superb (+5) and my defense is Good (+3)), I have to fit that stress somewhere.

You hit me for two points, so I have to mark the second box or a higher one, and the second box is already full. So the stress has to go in box three (this is what the SRD is talking about when it mentions stress "rolling up" to a higher box):
O X X

Now I am really in trouble. If you hit me for just one point, that can go in my first stress box, the only vacant one I have left. If you hit me for two or more points of stress, I can't put that anywhere in my stress track at all, because all my "two points or higher" boxes are already full. The stress from such a hit would "roll up" right off the end of my entire stress track, and I'd be taken out. (Now is a good time for me to start considering whether I should concede, and lose the fight on my own terms.)

(Note that since I have only three stress boxes in this example, you could have "one-shotted" me right from the word go, by hitting me with four or more points of stress. Because that would soar totally past my whole damned stress track. Ouch.)

So. Consequences.

Consequences are Bad Stuff that can happen to you during a conflict. They are more serious than stress, because they last longer (the most serious consequences can last until the end of the story arc or even beyond), and also because consequences work just like aspects. (You might think of them as specialized kinds of aspects.) So if I get a consequence it can be compelled against me like any other aspect, and other characters can spend a fate point to gain advantages when using that consequence against me.

Important: The SRD is based on Spirit of the Century. SotC treats consequences differently than other games. I'm going to tell you the current version, the one they developed after SotC, because they decided they liked it better.

Okay, so. There are three magnitudes of consequences: Mild, Moderate, and Severe. You can only ever have one of each type at any given time.

You can choose to take a consequence whenever you're hit by an attack. Doing so reduces the stress that attack causes you (and can even reduce it to zero). Mild consequences are worth -2 stress, Moderate are worth -4, and Severe are worth -6.

So let's go back to the "Xathan vs. LC Swordfight" example. Remember, you had been using me for a pin-cushion, and now my stress track looks like:
O X X

Let's imagine your next attack against me hits for three points. There is no way in hell I can fit a three-point hit into my poor stress track at this moment, so I have to either take a consequence, or get Taken Out. I could take a Mild Consequence (say, Winded), which would demote your three point hit to a one-point hit, and fill my first stress box (leaving all my stress boxes full!). Or I could take a Moderate Consequence (say, Bad Cuts) to subtract four points from your hit, leaving it a zero-point hit (aka: doesn't affect me). I could also take a Serious Consequence (say, Broken Ribs) to subtract six points and turn your hit into a zero-point nothing-hit, but since a Moderate Consequence would get me the same effect, that would be foolish overkill.

So let's say that in response to this three-point hit, I take the Moderate Consequence "Bad Cuts", that reduces the hit to zero points, so my stress track remains O X X, and I get to stay in the fight for now. But now I have the consequence Bad Cuts, and you know it (because you put it there). So on subsequent attacks you can spend a Fate Point to tag that consequence and get a bonus to your attack (thrashing me even more painfully). So taking that consequence let me stay in the fight, but gives me a lasting disadvantage. My stress will go away at the end of the scene, but the consequence will stick around longer.

If I already have one each of Mild, Moderate, and Severe consequences, I can't take any more, and I have no choice but to take any stress that comes my way, even if it's enough to Take Me Out of a conflict. (So don't get into a fight if you're already tired and wounded.)

Nonhuman Races can be handled in a couple of ways. An Aspect might be enough to do it, since that can cover both the advantages and disadvantages of whatever it is. I use an aspect plus a free stunt based on race. So my huge and tough race gets either an Endurance stunt or a Might stunt, my clever and logical race gets either an Investigation or a Scholarship stunt, etc.

The only thing I don't like is that you have to spend a fate point to avoid being compelled - when I write up a variation on the FATE system (I'm probably going to do both that and a modification of d20 for every setting now), I might alter that rule where there's some penalty for resisting a compelled, but you have the option of spending that fate point or accepting the penalty (minor enough to not utterly cripple your character, but strong enough to matter - something equivalent to becoming fatigued in d20.)

That's a pretty good idea. Personally, I don't mind the FP cost to resist compels (because as the game goes on you get this mounting sense of gradually losing self-control, or losing the ability to dodge trouble, until you end up with no FPs left and your behavior is just driven by your aspects.) I recommend you try it as-written a bit, just to see what you think. I know I keep saying this, but the hugely customizable nature of this system is one of its awesomest strengths.

[Lmns Crn]

I guess the next things I have trouble understanding are how supernatural abilities (magic especially - anything that is inherently versatile) work

Okay, I realize I didn't really address this very well.

Dresden Files RPG does a great job with its magic system within FATE, and with making very flexible powers. DFRPG uses a handful of stats for magic (Conviction for how much power you can throw around, Discipline for how well you can control it, Lore for how well you understand it), has a pretty cool system for pushing your limits (you can do "I can't handle it; it's too much power!" stuff, by inflicting mental stress on yourself to call extra power) and screwups (power you summon but then can't control either burns shit down as fallout, causing the spell to fail and maybe setting the scenery on fire, or hurts you with mental stress as backlash, causing the spell to succeed, but hurting you. (If the situation is dire enough, it's possible to be Taken Out by your own massive-ass spell, but achieve whatever it was you were trying to do in the process.)

I use a different, simpler magic system, but the DFRPG system is very snazzy.

In General, Though, versatile and flexible effects can be done by putting temporary aspects on things. So in a sword duel, you could feint by putting an "Off Balance" aspect on your enemy, and then later come back and tag that aspect for an advantage (or let an ally tag it, for super teamwork). Or in a con job, you could use flattery to put an aspect on someone, to make it easier to land your great big Deceit closer. Or with magic, you could use temporary aspects to represent hexes, or to represent someone's feet being frozen to the ground, or someone being on fire, or someone being imbued with super strength, etc., etc. Temporary aspects are a fantastic tool for pretty much any kind of situational effect you can think of.

[Ghostman]

How do you ensure any level of consistency on the interpretation of aspects?

How do you handle a conflict where each side has multiple aspects that would be to their advantage and/or disadvantage? Count them all in simultaneously? Seems that could get pretty complicated if the number of applicable aspects is very large.

Can you have aspects that are essentially the same thing but not equally powerful? Like for example, aspects called "Genius" and "SuperGenius"? If so, how do you balance character creation?

When you want to use an aspect to help you, it goes like this: pay a Fate Point, and either add +2 to your roll, or reroll the dice.

So if a character doesn't have any fate points at a moment, all of it's aspects are disabled? Isn't that going to lead to some odd scenarios? Say you got two characters, one a big strongman (so he gets an aspect like "Buff" to represent his great strength), the other an average joe (no strength-related aspects). Let's say both of them are out of fate points, and they're going to arm wrestle. Would the strongman be bereft of advantage in this contest because he can't use his "Buff" aspect?

[Lmns Crn]

How do you ensure any level of consistency on the interpretation of aspects?

How do you handle a conflict where each side has multiple aspects that would be to their advantage and/or disadvantage? Count them all in simultaneously? Seems that could get pretty complicated if the number of applicable aspects is very large.[/quote]Can you have aspects that are essentially the same thing but not equally powerful? Like for example, aspects called "Genius" and "SuperGenius"? If so, how do you balance character creation?[/quote]wicked smaht[/i] should find more interesting aspects to get that across-- something like "Absent-Minded Professor" or "Always Needs a Puzzle to Solve" would be much better than plain old "Genius".

So if a character doesn't have any fate points at a moment, all of it's aspects are disabled?

Isn't that going to lead to some odd scenarios? Say you got two characters, one a big strongman (so he gets an aspect like "Buff" to represent his great strength), the other an average joe (no strength-related aspects). Let's say both of them are out of fate points, and they're going to arm wrestle. Would the strongman be bereft of advantage in this contest because he can't use his "Buff" aspect?[/quote]. And in this example, he doesn't have any fate points, so that's not an option. Strongman wins.)

And anyway, "Buff" is not really the best aspect either, for the same reason as "Genius" isn't.

Aspects are a pretty big hurdle for new players-- particularly getting the hang of picking good ones, because a lot of it involves thinking about character creation in ways you don't usually. (Including laying yourself open to various vulnerabilities and flaws.) It gets easier, I promise.

[Xathan]

So far totally following and liking it more and more - this might (might, mind you) convert me from MnM for my non-super games. (Or I might end up hybridizing the two - the more I understand, the more potential for hybridization I see) However, I'm confused on one point...what exactly is a stunt, and how do they work?

Thank you so much by the way. This is a huge help for understanding what the hell this system's about and you're sucking me in like a world class hooker. ;)