[Mechanics] Triad System

[Lmns Crn]

This system kicks ass so far, and I'm seriously contemplating using it for Dystopia.

It's very simple, and yet it makes so much sense.[/quote]One issue though: the fact that Nick's health is limited by his speed (to the point where, despite having Guts 5 and Brawn 4, his Health is still 2!!!) makes little sense to me, considering how strong and durable he otherwise is.  It would make more sense to me if a core quality was the average of the three, so that his scores are 3, 2, 3, instead of 2, 2, 2.[/quote]of necessity[/i] be abstracted. So while Nick is built like a (slow) truck, his health is limited by what we can perhaps conceptualize as a difficulty in getting out of harm's way at a crucial moment. Or we can take comfort in the fact that Nick's high Guts score will help keep him from taking damage in the first place, making a lower Health less crippling. Either way, the system isn't perfect.

I instinctively dislike the idea of averaging main Qualities to derive their associated Core Qualities, because it provides no incentive towards balanced and well-rounded characters. Averaged Core Qualities give our hypothetical Nick a perfectly average Health of 3 even with the extreme and improbable Physical Quality array of 1/1/7, which strikes me as more than a little unlikely. Averaged Core Qualities increase by one third for each point of increase in the associated Qualities, which negates a lot of the strategic dilemma surrounding character advancement. I'm not sure how I feel about that.

But here I go rambling again. I'll think about it, and say no more tonight.

Except to point out that some Magic Thoughts are now posted, meaning that the first portion of the magic system is available for your reading pleasure.

[Numinous]

I second Angel on averaging for Core Qualities.

Also, this just gives me some awesome pictures in my head.

Mind Over Matter - A mage concentrating on this potent Thought may selectively ignore the laws of nature themselves. This Thought protects a mage against dangers by allowing the mage to treat them as harmless. By exercising Mind Over Matter, the mage may consume poison without consequence, watch arrows pass insubstancially through his body, or harmlessly catch the hewing blade of a sword with a naked hand. This power is taxing in the extreme, however; focusing on Mind Over Matter occupies two points of Focus instead of one, and every injury avoided with this Thought requires the mage to expend one point of Focus or one point of Will. (If doing so is impossible, or if expending a point of Focus would require the mage to drop concentration on Mind Over Matter, the hapless mage suffers injury as normal.)

A mage, with billowing cloak, catching the sword of a hapless swordsman in his bare hand, then letting loose a maniacal laugh.  The swordsman screams like a little girl at this point, and runs away.  While the mage collapses shortly after his opponent has "retreated", he still snickers at the cowardice of his oppnent and the power of a good bluff.

[snakefing]

Well, you could use geometric mean instead of arithmetic.

Nah, no one likes cube roots. :P

[SA]

I agree that averaging really isn't the best solution to the problem - a speed 7 character with practically no guts and brawn logically wouldn't be as hardy as totally average character (besides which, the aesthetic simplicity of the system would be compromised my the mathematics of averaging) - but it seems to me that speed's contribution to staying alive is already covered in the rolls to avoid the hit in the first place, and that guts and brawn play a much larger part in health's stated purpose (defining how much punishment a character can take before his body fails him).  Technically, speed has played its part before the blow even hits.

My interpretation of the relevance of each physical quality relative to Health is thus, in descending order:

Guts
Brawn
Speed

Logically, methinks, guts contributes more to health, so that a speed 1 character with guts 6 and brawn 5 is still a veritable TANK.  Thus, for balance purposes, taking the lowest might be more applicable, but averaging seems a better abstraction of any character's physical state across the board (indicative of their overall commitment to physical development).  I honestly wouldn't use averaging either, but I'd sooner face the ridiculousness of a speed-7 warrior being unjustifiably uber than a tankish warrior being frail simply because he's really slow...

[Tangential]

I like this. Not as a substitution for d20 but rather as a substitution for overly complex "universal" systems like GURPS and it's ilk. I am especially fond the Arc system.

And speaking to the current discussion: What about compromising and taking the average of the two lowest qualities?

In that case Nick the Farmer would have
Health 3/ Focus 3/ Will 4. This admittedly still suffers from the 1/1/7 dilemma but to a lesser extent.

Perhaps to prevent 1/1/7s and similar you could limit the highest of any Physical, Mental or Social stat to the sum of it's two lowest attributes?

Thus you could have a 1/1/1 or a 2/2/4 or a 5/8/3.

[Epic Meepo]

:cool: BizUMP!

(Says Meeps: "This thread deserves a Bump.")

[Tangential]

Live

[Ghost]

I'm liking this system a lot. Simpler than many others i've read, which is a good thing.

I went ahead and converted a character from a D&D campaign i'll hopefully be DMing soon into Triad.


This is the original, d20, stats.

After some thought, I ended up with this version.

[spoiler=Kazith Janange, Triad Version]

Kazith Janange, Legionnaire of the Swords of Light

Qualities:

Physical (12)
 

Speed - 3

 

Guts - 5

 

Brawn - 4

Mental (10)
 

Wits - 3

 

Lore - 4

 

Wisdom - 3

Social (7)
 

Style - 3

 

Grace - 2

 

Charm - 2

Specialties:

  Swimming - 3
  Macefighting - 2
  Religious Fervor - 1 (I was thinking some kind of bonus when attacking an enemy connected to his church, like a Banite or demon)
  Tracking - 1
  Religious Knowledge - 1 (as before, a bonus only when trying to remember something connected to his religion)
  Riding - 1

[/spoiler]

I hope I did this right. If there's any mechanical points I forgot, tell me.

This took much less time than even the d20 version did. That's nice, especially when making large numbers of a variety of characters or NPCs.
 

[Numinous]

I was reading the thread again, and I had a suggestion for you.

Resonance - A mage using this Thought drapes himself with the mantle of authority, lending extraordinary weight to his words. When he speaks while focusing upon Resonance, his voice dances with irresistable undertones and strange echoes, becoming hard to ignore or to disobey. While under the effects of Resonance, a mage may use the Circle Magic Specialization in rolls involving getting and holding the attention of others, or persuading them to follow commands.

Resonance lends the mage a voice of authoritative command or tempting suggestion, not a voice of destruction. Obviously self-destructive commands are ignored, and anyone witnessing them becomes immune to that mage's Resonance for a day and feels that something unnatural and sinister has just happened. More subtle trickery may still work, however, so while a mage may not use Resonance to encourage someone to jump off a balcony, he might successfully persuade the same person to indulge in a glass of (poisoned) wine. Resonance and Obscurity inverse and are mutually exclusive Thoughts, and no mage may use both simultaneously.

Will[/b] with the term "Resolve"?  As you were looking for suggestions and all.

[SA]

BUUUUUUUUUUUUMP!

Luminous, if you ain't gonna finish this, then by golly I will.  I need it!

(I think I'll organise a playlist with my group for next week)

[Lmns Crn]

Funny story! I was thinking about this project last night while trying to sleep, and this morning, the thread is on the front page again. How about that!

I am glad to see some of you have been playing with these ideas and breaking them in. Naturally, I will be very interested in hearing details about what you discover during your testing, whether you are running a game with these mechanics or just setting up a few characters.

With that said, I think this system is probably playable-- almost. If I could be sure the incomplete magic system wasn't going to be needed (or at least not much), I'd be comfortable enough to start a game in this system tonight (if I had the time, which I don't, but that's neither here nor there.)

Here's a short list of the most pressing things that need to be addressed for this system to become really functional:

1. Character Creation/Advancement
Do we even need it, and if so, how should it work? This is probably the least complicated of my concerns, because it seems like it'd boil down to a simple "you have X points to spend on attributes. Go spend them." Time and playtesting may prove me wrong, I guess!

2. Weapons and Equipment
I want to downplay this as much as I can-- I think making a real big deal out of weapon mechanics encourages a pretty silly collect and upgrade attitude among players, and takes the spotlight off the courageous swordsman in favor of his +5 Doomsword of Glowy Doom. For that reason, I'm attracted to the idea of a system where a sword is a sword is a sword-- just a tool to help a warrior actualize his own inner skill.

So I do not intend to write out massive tables of weapon characteristics. In fact, I think I can do just as well with three adjectives, like so:

Weapons which are primarily accurate (like a longbow or an assassin's dagger) add some kind of bonus to checks when they're used to attack-- to see if they hit.

Weapons which are primarily defensive (what a terrible word to use here, but like a fencer's parrying sword) give a similar bonus to checks when they're used to defend-- to swat aside an opponent's blows.

Weapons which are primarily brutal (such as a huge honkin' battleaxe, or a grenade launcher, etc.) do two points of Health damage when they injure somebody, instead of one. Because they may not be graceful, but they sure do mangle their victims!

Some weapons have none of these adjectives (example: "I'm thwacking you with a stick!"), and that's pretty much equivalent to just punching someone. Weapons with two or more (!!!) of these adjectives would be magic weapons, weapons of extremely high quality made by very skilled craftsmen, relics from the gods, or something like that.

3. The Magic System
There is simply no way around this: it's not done. The magic system has three interconnected disciplines (Thought, Gesture, and Inscription), and of these, only Thought is currently usable. The good news is that I have some notes on Gesture (if only I can find them! :yumm:), and that Thought is probably the most interesting of the three anyway. The bad news is that Inscription will probably be the most complex and work-intensive of the three, and I haven't really started on it yet.

The other tricky thing involves character creation and advancement again, because magic works "outside" of the basic system of qualities and specialties. This raises questions like "how much is knowledge of a magic Thought worth?" and "how does a player create a magic-using character?"

The other good news is that magic is totally optional, and if you want to do a game without magic, you neatly sidestep all the problems I just mentioned under point #3.

There are probably some other things that need tweaking, but those are the main ones that come to mind in terms of getting the system off the ground and working. Give me about six hours and I'll check back and see what else I can clean up here. (I'll be stuck at work during that time, and will have internet access and too much time on my hands.)

If you notice something conspicuously absent, please bring it to my attention. ("Hey Luminous, how does this system handle XYZ?") It'll either get you a quick explanation of how something works, or (more likely) prod me into fixing something I didn't know was brokeded (which is good.)

Speaking of questions, Salacious_Angel, any word on that Jade Stage game you were running? If possible, I would still like to hear how it turned out.

[Wensleydale]

I love this - simple, but effective.

The magic system is the best I've seen so far. I love the idea of Resonance - reminds me of the Bene Gesserit, and that's a good thing - and if you were to run a PbP game using this system, even without magic, I'd jump straight in. And that's saying something.

[Lmns Crn]

Flexing my creative muscles a bit. Don't mind me.

[spoiler=Everyday Folks]

Mental (11)
Lore: 2
Wits: 5
Wisdom: 4
Focus = 2

Social (8)
Charm: 2
Style: 2
Grace: 4
Will = 2

Specializations:
Gumshoeing: 2
Melodrama: 1

Mental (13)
Lore: 5
Wits: 4
Wisdom: 4
Focus = 4

Social (8)
Charm: 3
Style: 2
Grace: 3
Will = 2

Specializations:
Research: 3
English Grammar and Spelling: 2
Library Science: 2
Enforcing Quiet: 3[/quote][spoiler=Jade Stage Characters]

Mental (11)
Lore: 3
Wits: 3
Wisdom: 5
Focus = 3

Social (10)
Charm: 3
Style: 4
Grace: 3
Will = 3

Specializations:
Naturalism: 1
Brawling: 2
History: 4
Circle Magic: 1

Magic:
Circlesight
Arc Aspect
Awareness

Mental (9)
Lore: 2
Wits: 3
Wisdom: 4
Focus =

Social (16)
Charm: 5
Style: 6
Grace: 5
Will = 5

Specializations:
Negotiations: 3
Trustworthiness:1
Swordsmanship: 1
Discerning Lies: 2
[/quote][spoiler=Cheezy Science Fiction]

Mental (7)
Lore: 2
Wits: 3
Wisdom: 2
Focus = 2

Social (9)
Charm: 2
Style: 5
Grace: 2
Will = 2

Specializations:
Kava-Synth Performance: 4
Schmoozing: 2
Space Piloting: 1

Mental (10)
Lore: 3
Wits: 5
Wisdom: 2
Focus = 2

Social (8)
Charm: 4
Style: 2
Grace: 2
Will = 2

Specializations:
Infantry Tactics: 4
Space Piloting: 1
Laser Marksmanship: 3
Intimidation: 2

Equipment:
Military ID
Phasor Rifle (accurate)[/quote]

[SA]

Hoo rah!  Loving those characters (just wrote up a few of my own; it only took around one or two minutes to create each).  I particularly like the specializations: schmoozing, melodrama and enforcing quiet.  Better than a skill system, any day.

I'm still anguishing over the whole "core quality equals lowest primary quality", though; neither that nor my alternative "average" seems satisfying to me (though I still prefer the latter).  Gor of Iro has Physical 2,5,4, for a total attribution of 11 points.  Ruth, on the other hand, has 2,2,2, for a total of 6.  I can't conceive of a badass boru bouncer going down as quickly as a bookworm - it just makes no sense.

Regardless, I'll playtest both and see which one works out best.

Also, in answer to your Jade Stage question: I'm writing up a narrative version of the session.  It'll appear at around the same time as I get around to posting Iounennion.

[Lmns Crn]

I toyed with the idea of listing a bunch of pre-brainstormed Specializations, but decided against it. I like the idea of a fleible system there, though a few of them are obviously a little comedically-aimed. (I'm not even sure what a Melodrama stat would actually be used for.) I think the main pitfall here would be a tendency to let them become too broad, but I think it's easier and more in the spirit of the system to leave it up to individual GMs to disallow catchall specializations like "Kicking Your Ass."

I'm still anguishing over the whole "core quality equals lowest primary quality", though; neither that nor my alternative "average" seems satisfying to me (though I still prefer the latter). Gor of Iro has Physical 2,5,4, for a total attribution of 11 points. Ruth, on the other hand, has 2,2,2, for a total of 6. I can't conceive of a badass boru bouncer going down as quickly as a bookworm - it just makes no sense.

supposition[/u] is that Health is going to be less important to overall combat survival than using qualities and specialties to avoid being wounded in the first place. The actual mechanics in action may or may not end up supporting that hypothesis, but the way I hope and assume it will work means that Gor won't "go down" as quickly as Ruth at all, because his high Guts and his Brawling skill should help him avoid taking wounds.

(Or maybe I just did a really lousy job of statting out somebody who's supposed to hold his own in combat. I wrote this system, but that shouldn't lead anybody to assume that I'm any good at using it. :yumm: )

But like you say, it's really going to be a matter of playtesting and seeing how it works. I'm not totally satisfied with the "core = lowest of the three" system either, but it appeals to me most out of all the candidates so far.

The combat system seems to be shaping up to be pretty bloody. (Not that I mind.) While you could potentially raise your Health as high as 7, lower values predominate, and if "brutal" weapons hack off two Health points per injury, it's going to be really difficult for anybody to take multiple wounds and keep on going.

I have a few more things to say about combat (or more broadly, about conflict-resolution rolls, whether it's violent or otherwise.) I'll try to get that posted before I leave work tonight, in the interest of playtesting.