Philosophy in the Den

[Elven Doritos]

Predeterminestiny, eh? It's so brilliant it just might work!

[CYMRO]

Predeterminestiny, eh? It's so brilliant it just might work!

Resistance is useless!

[Numinous]

Predestination.  Hands down.  It's so hopeless when you try to comprehend it, it makes me depressed and therefore happy.

[Elven Doritos]

Predestination.  Hands down.  It's so hopeless when you try to comprehend it, it makes me depressed and therefore happy.

I think someone needs the definition to "depression"... >_>

[CYMRO]

Predestination.  Hands down.  It's so hopeless when you try to comprehend it, it makes me depressed and therefore happy.

I think someone needs the definition to "depression"... >_>

Maybe he meant oppression.  It seems to make a lot of people happy...

[Numinous]

No, I meant depression.  Maybe content instead of happy though...

[snakefing]

Here's another bogus topic - for each alignment, think of a stereotypical governing style - then take that to its extreme such that it eats its own tail and destroys itself.

For an example, I'll take neutral good. By the RAW, good is concerned with altruism and helping people. Neutral good doesn't care about the means - whether freedom to let people make themselves happy, or order and regimentation to prevent oppression - it will do what seems needful to provide the greatest good for the greatest number.

In an ideal, the neutral good government tries to pass laws to reduce evil behavior, while promoting prosperity and well-being for all. In the extreme, it becomes so concerned with providing for the material needs of all that it creates a kind of enforced altruism. Whether via high taxes or required charitable efforts, they seek to bring well-being to even the least of their subjects.

This ends up being self-defeating when the required charity ends up favoring short-term benefits to the weakest members of society over longer-term investments to generate long term prosperity. The results are anything but good - stagnation, decay, poverty, weakness.

The idea is that each alignment starts with some ideal, but in pursuing it blindly, without heed to the real-world consequences of their choices, they end up undermining their own goals.

[Numinous]

Whoa, my brain just melted...

[CYMRO]

The idea is that each alignment starts with some ideal, but in pursuing it blindly, without heed to the real-world consequences of their choices, they end up undermining their own goals.

So this explains why paladins, as represented on the wotcee boards, are always killing babies...

[snakefing]

So this explains why paladins, as represented on the wotcee boards, are always killing babies...

Just so - they've gone so far into Lawful Good that they've come out on the other side.

[Wormwood]

If first part of aligment is Law - Chaos, it would point towards society's perception of such things. I claim that societies are not chaotic (they can not be called societies if they are truly in chaos). Even in anarchy, there is an order of some sort be it only 'might makes it right' or ganging up as a looting groups. Simply, humans don't know how to function in chaos, but they always set up groups and those groups always operate with some social rule-set, often unwritten.

This would suggest that Lawful person would infact follow the rules of society, what ever they might be, while chaotic would discard these rules. This would mean, that in society in anarchy, orderly monk practicing self-meditation is actually a chaotic character, not ready to give in the rules of society.

The second part seems to be more personal part. Good - Evil. It would seem to be as personal choice, but when inspected more closely, it turns out to be reflection towards the same social taboos and rules. Your 'Goodness or Evilness' is always determined by other people and the ruleset they they use, are rules and taboos of the society. You can not be nothing but Good, if you follow the rules and same time you can not be anything that Lawful, while following the rules and vice versa. After all, greed, selfsatisfaction and altruism don't come to play here, only how accurately you match the societies rules and taboos.

Thus I submit that there is only two aligments: Lawful Good and Chaotic Evil and they tell you absolutely nothing about personality until you examine the society that set the rules and guidelines in first place.

[Túrin]

The idea is that each alignment starts with some ideal, but in pursuing it blindly, without heed to the real-world consequences of their choices, they end up undermining their own goals.

So this explains why paladins, as represented on the wotcee boards, are always killing babies...

That would actually be DM-meanness. Don't tell your players, it'll be our secret. ;)

[beejazz]

Philosophical conundrum of the week:

Predestiny? Or determinism?

Wait... do either of these options afford the conscious individual any degree of control over his own destiny? Quantum physics and numerous random-number generator tests imply that we, as individuals, have a greater impact on the world around us than it has on us. The world runs more on the Dune quantum-possibilities model than on the Foundation calcuable-probability model. Don't believe me? Ask yourself which future sells better.

[Túrin]

I was also surprised that ElDo didn't give us any actual non-deterministic option: predestiny is largely just religiously flavoured determinism (sorry if this sounds offensive, this is not intended to give either of these words a negative connotation).

So how about free will or [insert fancy name for free will-ism] instead of predestiny/determinism?

Túrin

[CYMRO]

The idea is that each alignment starts with some ideal, but in pursuing it blindly, without heed to the real-world consequences of their choices, they end up undermining their own goals.

So this explains why paladins, as represented on the wotcee boards, are always killing babies...

That would actually be DM-meanness. Don't tell your players, it'll be our secret. ;)

Luckily for me, in Altvogge I broke the paladin down int little bits, fused the decent parts onto the cleric and burned the rest, burying the ashes at an undisclosed crossroads.