Simulating Action Genre in PnP games - Help Needed

[Xathan]

(yup, back again.)

This is a project I've been trying to work on for the past couple months and been stopping short on since I'm stuck on one simple thing. Brief bit of background: after re-watching the Bourne series, I realized that there is no system that really emulates the style of fighting that you see in those movies. Fast paced, taking down multiple people in rapid succession, grabbing random items to use (effectively) as weapons, using other people as human shields or to knock people back - Watch this clip with sound off to see exactly what I mean. I decided to create a system to allow this kind of combat, something flexible enough to allow for a range of games from the Bourne series to the Matrix to Priest to Equilibrium etc.

The problem is, I've not come up with a satisfactory way to do it. The d20 system is right out as an option - it is based around 6 second turns, and typically only 1-4 attacks can be made per turn, far slower than I have in mind. In addition, stunts like grabbing a random item to use as a weapon in the middle of a fight can take a full round (move action to get to weapon, free action to pick up, and if you're lucky standard action to attack someone or if you have the proper feats move action to get into melee range...and wait to attack again). In addition, things like using enemies as shields or pushing them into other people are not only insanely complicated but also difficult to pull off at best. The Mutants and Masterminds system can be used to create attacks that make it closer to what I have in mind, but such attacks tend to be absurdly expensive to build.

The FATE system, as much as I love it now, isn't really crunchy enough for what I have in mind - I want something with more defined rules for how it works. This rules out most other Indy game systems as well - though they often allow for narrative descriptions of fights like this, I'd rather something that gives players the satisfaction of rolling the dice and getting the hits as opposed to simply describing how awesome your character is.

The world of darkness system is much slower paced than this, requires too much dice counting, and since White Wolf is rather lawsuit happy, anything that looks too much like it is likely to get me slapped with a cease an desist faster than I can say "intellectual property"

The best idea I've seen comes from the Cyberpunk 2020 games, which using a sliding initiative system that allows for multiple actions in a single round if you roll high enough, but doesn't allow actions other than attacking directly very well which kind of defeats the purpose.

So this is why I'm turning to you, my fellow CBGers - how would you create a system that allows for the fast paced action of action movies and creative fighting we often see there? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

[Superfluous Crow]

One major hurdle is to actually make the quick jabs and improvised attacks a favorable way of spending your actions. I think mostly this boils down to a matter of speed, surprise, availability and distance in (cinematic) RL.
I think the best way to implement this would be with a sliding initiative, as you mentioned, like in Guildschool (I believe?) and Suzerain. Any action will increase your initiative by a set amount and actions with a low cost will allow you to get more shots in. Also, some kind of range system should be implemented. There is a reason you start punching/kicking; you are too close to use anything else effectively and your opponent is likewise inhibited.
Just a few ideas to start the discussion.

[Lmns Crn]

Well, I was going to say Wushu, but if FATE is too light for you, Wushu is right out. (I still think FATE works just fine for your examples; it's just a lot of maneuvers, really. The game mechanics are general, but they're there to support you.)

I think you should take a good hard look at Burning Wheel, or the various spinoffs that use its general mechanic. (Burning Empires, I know, is a sci-fi "humans vs. brainworms" variation.) There's a hell of a lot of battle-scene options, and each tends to be good against some opponents' strategies and bad against others, so there's a lot to be gained for correctly anticipating what your enemy is going to do and then choosing an action that takes advantage of whatever opening he's leaving you. (In many ways, it's like a very elaborate rock-paper-scissors, except that you have a dozen options instead of three, and it uses character stats.)

I dunno, though, man. In general, if I want cinematic action, I want a system where the mechanics are kept as light as possible so they don't get in the way of my flow. I think we may be coming at this issue from some very different angles, so there may not be a lot I can do to usefully advise you.

[Steerpike]

I haven't played it, but I've heard The Riddle of Steel has an intensely simulationist combat system allowing for a lot of detailed moves and such.  Could be worth a look.

If I was scratch-building something myself, I'd suggest trying to build a system around a series of contested rolls, as opposed to d20's roll vs. a static number system.

In general, though, I feel 90% of making interesting/dynamic combats comes down to description, player creativity, and being flexible with the rules system.  Check out, for instance, Elemental Elf's recent Mass Effect PbP, which is principally using the Star Wars RPG rules.  We just had a protracted fight in an office complex in which human shields were used, enemies were taken down quickly (I killed two enemies with a single shot each), biotic users sent enemies flying around the room, a hidden turret hacked into and activated, a Mexican an standoff occurred, cover was flipped over, quips exchanged, and grenades hurled -all in a d20 system.  I don't think the combat could have got much more dynamic and chaotic, and even with the slow pace of a play-by-post the whole thing still felt frenetic and fast-paced.  We didn't just stand around and roll to hit vs enemy defense, we improvised, thought out our moves, put effort into descriptions, as did our GM.

My own IRC game, which I'm running using a modified version of Iron Heroes (also d20) likewise can get pretty dynamic/swashbuckly at times.  In one relatively recent fight at a masquerade ball and subsequently in airships above a city two characters had to catch hold of balcony railings, push their way through a crowded ballroom, intercept multiple assassins, spring up stairs, and leap from a clockwork ornithopter onto a dirigible and brawl in the cockpit while one of them kept the flyer steady (there was also a hostage involved).  In many fights players change weapons several times (gun, spell, sword, grenade, bow, claw, grafted demoniac tendril...) and interact with their environment in one way or another.

Check out this excerpt from a solo session I ran a short while ago with one of the players:

[spoiler]After some time you arrive at a larger chamber. A huge chasm gapes before you '" a wound in the earth, its bottom lost in darkness. Only a rickety bridge allows passage over this rift, a rough construction supported by tall stilts which descend into the gloom below. The bridge zigzags several times and is quite long, as the chasm is considerably wide.

"A bit past here the mines intersect with some older tunnels," Mikhail says.

* Kaius Alexander grimaces at the bridge, reminded of another horrible situation.

Mikhail starts to make his way across.

You very faintly think you might have heard a voice echoing from behind you somewhere.

* Kaius Alexander looks back over his shoulder, but gently steps out onto the span.

As you cross the bridge it groans beneath your weight. A rotten piece of wood snaps off under your footfall!

* Kaius Alexander steps carefully and calls back to the other Awakener.

Kaius Alexander '" Step with care, there is a missing plank.

The Awakener nods and moves slowly. You are halfway across the long, zigzagging bridge when you hear a hissing sound behind you, and a Grey Matron, accompanied by three Insomnolent Guardsmen, appear at the entrance to the chamber! While the Guardsmen begin to make their way across the bridge the Matron floats overhead. The Guardsmen squeeze off shots as they pursue you.

You note that The Matron is one-handed'¦

Kaius Alexander '" Mikhail! They're here!

Mikhail stops and brings his rifle to bear. His bullet whines through the darkness.

* Kaius Alexander brings his scattergun up. He carefully tracks the Matron as he slowly works his way along the bridge, hunching over to present a smaller target to the Guardsmen.

The Guardsmen fire, but hit only the bridge.

The Awakener takes a shot with his flintlock. It pings off a Guardsman's helm.

The Matrons swoops low, finger extended!

* Kaius Alexander pulls the trigger on his scattergun.

You blast the Matron in the face. Somehow she survives. She hisses a word of fell power.

Her eldritch bolt hits the bridge. One of the stilts snaps off and the bridge begins to tremble.

* Kaius Alexander works the break on his scattergun. A spent slug casing pops out and flies off into the darkness. Cursing under his breath he quickens his pace.

Mikhail shoots again, then sprints to the end of the bridge.

The Awakener behind you takes a bullet to the head and falls into the pit.

Kaius Alexander '" No!

* Kaius Alexander grimaces and again raises his scattergun.

The Matron swerves aside, avoiding your shot. She fixes you with here gaze.

* Kaius Alexander puts his right hand on his revolver, preparing to draw it

You shrug off her influence.

One of the Insomnolent Guards trips over the hole where the plank was disturbed! One of his fellows nearly falls off the bridge, but maintains his balance.

Mikhail takes another shot, but in the darkness, he misses.

* Kaius Alexander smoothly draws his revolver and points it at the Matron, firing off a shot.

The Matron again swerves, cackling evilly.

As you beat a retreat the Matron sends another bolt of energy towards you, but again merely hits the bridge, punching a hole in it. The guards, recovering, continue across.

Mikhail hits one in the torso, spalling his armour.

Kaius Alexander '" Die, hag.

* Kaius Alexander again fires on the Matron.

The crone is about to shriek another word of dark power, but your bullet hits her withered heart. She plummets from the air and smashes into the bridge; it shakes again.

Mikhail starts making his way down the far passage.

* Kaius Alexander turns and hurries after Mikhail.

You take a bullet through a gap in your armour. It passes cleanly through your body.

* Kaius Alexander grunts and stumbles for a second, but regains his footing.

There is a sound of splintering wood behind you as the bridge collapses beneath the weight of the three Guardsmen. One of them manages to leap to safety, but the others fall into the abyss.

Up ahead the mines seem to end, giving way to another set of passages.

* Kaius Alexander whirls at the sound of the collapsing bridge, seeing that only one Guardsmen remains, he draws his sword and begins advancing on the man.

Kaius Alexander '" Mikhail! Only one remains, I will take him.

The Guardsman draws his own blade.

He adopts a defensive posture, waiting for you to attack.

* Kaius Alexander swings his blade.

The Insomnolent parries your initial strike, but you parry his riposte in turn and counterattack, bringing your blade down against his shoulder and severing an arm.

He stumbles back, bleeding everywhere, and nearly falls into the pit.

He feebly swings his blade with his remaining hand.

* Kaius Alexander smirks as he brings his blade down from high guard. It slides cleanly through the gap between the Guard's gorget and helm. The man topples backwards, his head separating from his body as he plummets into the pit. Kaius flicks the gore from his blade and sheathes it.

Mikhail grunts appreciatively.

"Impressive fighting."

Kaius Alexander '" I do what I must. Come, let us continue.

The guard's severed arm still twitches in a pool of blood, clutching the gun that wounded you.[/spoiler]
My point is, the feel of fights is decided as much by how they're described/handled as they are by the combat mechanics themselves.

EDIT: Another example of more frenetic d20 combat from my Cadaverous Earth game:

[spoiler]A thuggish human with a flintlock pistol menaces a slender ghul woman here. The grave-spawn is backed up against a dead end.

Tarim '" A mugging in action. How charming.

Kaius Alexander '" Why are you threatening this woman?

* Kaius Alexander says as he draws his blade.

The thug turns. "This ain't yer business."

Kaius Alexander '" Isn't it? It appears to have become my business, now that I am here.

Tarim '" I'm afraind my armoured friend has a habit of making things his business.

The man turns his flintlock towards you. "Back off or I'll put a bullet tween yer eyes."

* Kaius Alexander snorts derisively and lowers his visor.

* Tarim takes cover behind Kaius, leveling his rifle at the thug.

Kaius Alexander '" I will ask you to leave. But this is your final chance.

The thug grunts and fires, but his bullet goes wide. He hastily begins reloading.

* Kaius Alexander charges at the man, blade sweeping wide.

The thug abruptly vanishes, turning into wisps of pale smoke as your blade touches him. The ghul woman stops screaming and gives you a sharp-toothed grin.

* Kaius Alexander stops abruptly.

Kaius Alexander '" Not unanticipated. Foolish of you, to lure your own death, witch.

Tarim, you hear a footstep behind you.

* Tarim spins around and ducks, firing his rifle blindly at the direction of the sounds.

Another ghul with identical features to the grave-spawn woman in front of you bears down on you from the mouth of the alley with a pair of wicked-looking katara. Unlike her twin this ghul is garbed in tight-fitting manskin-leather armour. Tarim's bullet whines over her head.

The woman at the dead end speaks a word of numinous power and a disembodied, phantasmal hand, clawed and tinted crimson, manifests before her, floating above the ground. Meanwhile her twin launches herself at Tarim, her weapons flickering. Tarim pulls backwards, and the assassin's blade slashes his thigh.

* Kaius Alexander leaps towards the balde-wielding assassin, dodging around Tarim, his sword raised.

Your blade is parried, but you parry her riposte and counter-attack, slashing the ghul's torso! The grave-spawn woman grunts.

The spectral hand claws at Kaius as the witch chants an incantation, but the warrior's sudden leap means that it only grasps air.

* Tarim hisses at the ghul woman and carefully unleashes a hex. Four Tarim duplicates suddenly crowd the alleyway.

The katara-wielding assassin launches a frenzied counterattack, but her weapons bounce off Kaius' armour.

* Kaius slashes viciously, trying to end the fight quickly.

The ghul warrior leaps backwards, avoiding your blow.

* Tarim backs away from the assassin and turns his attention on the witch. With an echoing command word he unleashes a crackling stream of black puissance, shooting forth from his clawed fingers at the ghul.

The witch stumbles backwards, shrieking as the black energy courses along her body. She chants another hex, and the claw makes to strike Tarim, but he fends it off with the butt of his rifle.

Her twin considers Kaius carefully and makes a sudden, precise jab.

* Kaius Alexander manages to block the blow just in time using his heavy shield.

Kaius Alexander '" It seems you have chosen your prey carelessly.

* Kaius Alexander continues to attack, lunging and slashing.

Once again she ducks under your blade.

* Tarim ignores the claw and points his rifle at the witch, releasing a shot.

Your bullet hits the witch in the kneecap and she falls to the ground, cursing. Her claw makes yet another swipe at you, but it is wavering '" perhaps disoriented by its controller's wound.

* Tarim easily avoids it.

Tarim '" You should only prey on those who are weaker than you.

* Kaius Alexander skillfully parries one of the ghul's swift blows and hammers through the assassin's defenses with a vicious overhead chop, half-decapitating her.

Her corpse slumps to the ground. The witch-twin screams hideously.

* Kaius Alexander flicks the blood from his blade and turns.

* Tarim steps closer to his target and aims, his decorated stare devoid of mercy.

* Tarim pulls the trigger, and the smokign barrel of his rifle roars again.

Your bullet takes the woman through the chest, and she collapses, blood sluggishly trickling from her lips. She slides down the wall, leaving a bloody trail. The red claw shimmers and vanishes into the aether.

* Kaius Alexander sheathes his sword.

Kaius Alexander '" These two were of some skill.[/spoiler]

[Matt Larkin (author)]

I haven't played it, but I've heard The Riddle of Steel has an intensely simulationist combat system allowing for a lot of detailed moves and such.  Could be worth a look.

TRoS has a very detailed combat system. It can intimidate new players and make learning the game challenging as you try to understand complex workings. Players used to d20 may find it especially frustrating (or especially liberating) at first, as some of the basic assumptions of game design differ. TRoS also offers spiritual attributes that let you accomplish more when something that your PC really cares about is at stake.

Combat in TRoS takes place in two second rounds each of which is divided into two passes where both combatants will act simultaneously, usually one on offense and one on defense. However, it's rules for what Xathan mentioned are limited. It focuses on heavily on armed melee combat, especially sword maneuvers. Some expansions add more support for unarmed combat, but still not quite what I think he wanted.

I had Burning Wheel and read it and thought it was cool. But I sold it on ebay because I figured, limited as my time for playing games is, I'd never get much chance to try it out. Maybe I should have saved it.

I did try Iron Heroes, Steerpike. My players didn't love it and wanted to go back to D&D.

[Steerpike]

Iron Heroes definitely has its limitations.  My current game is really more of a bastard hybrid of Iron Heroes and 3.5.  My point was only that description and player creativity could inject otherwise stilted/sluggish d20 combat (I roll to-hit, you roll to-hit, ad nauseum) with freneticism and vividness.  That doesn't mean I think d20 is the best for what Xathan's looking for - it's certainly not purpose-built for Bournesque brawling.

[Nomadic]

I'm unaware of any systems that really do this. That's certainly not to say that there are none just none that I've seen. This subject however interests me as with my setting I want combat to be more fluid and open to possibilities like unarmed combat which plays too small a role in DnD. DnD pretty much penalizes unarmed combat with long times to do actions, little effect from using it, and straight on penalties (improv weapon penalty for example). In real life unarmed combat is an integral part of all close range combat whether your focus is an unarmed martial art or with a melee weapon or a close range ranged weapon.

I look at the problem from my perspective, which is one with a foundation in martial arts (Aikido to be precise). When dealing with a martial art of any kind you must realize that each art is going to be on average quite different from another art. Oh there will be similarities but the underlying principles are often different to a point where different schools of thought would have to be implemented with their own rules. For my setting in order to make this work I've been looking at a system that uses Vreeg's rolling initiative. It looks something like this:

- At the start of combat all persons involved roll initiative
- The lowest number(s) go first with numbers indicating seconds
- Certain actions take a certain amount of time (a punch might take a second to throw while a more elaborate attack such as jumping onto someone and trying to pin them might take 3 or more seconds)
- During your turn you take your action and add that time to your initiative and then the next person in line goes
- Attacks are not opposed by a set defense number but by a defense roll
- Damage is only one way to stop an opponent, a large part of combat involves temporary penalties this results in a very brutal system where the tides can shift quickly and where players may show more self preservation as penalties have a more noticeable effect on combat than just a -x to an hp number (which as long as you keep it above 0 generally has no effect at all)

On top of this I set the martial schools which contain the various combat styles whether they are various unarmed schools (karate, taekwondo, aikido, etc), melee weapon schools (fencing, long sword, axe, bludgeon, shield bashing, etc), marksman schools (archery, shooting, etc). Each school is represented by a skill showing the persons experience with the school. Higher experience gives them a higher chance to succeed when using said training and also unlocks advanced techniques (perks). For example a swordsman might learn how to parry an attack while someone skilled with an unarmed art like Aikido might gain an ability that lets them turn an opponents attack into a throw and so forth.

Outside of straight combat maneuvers I have the overskills which govern general things that anyone would be able to do to some degree (grappling someone and using them as a human shield (which you'd get a bonus to do if you knew an unarmed art that had training on such a thing), using a table as an improvised shield, throwing dust in an opponents eyes, etc). I've also been looking into the idea of using special points that a player can burn to do something cool (Igor the barbarian burns a point and describes how he grabs a nearby guard and snaps his neck like a twig while roaring in defiance at the remaining guards, one guard is dead the others must make saves vs intimidation, and Igor's player feels freakin' awesome). I've been considering making them a 1pt per session thing where points don't carry over so players are encouraged to use them but still have to be wise about how they use them. There are things to consider like how points effect major challenges (perhaps the BBEG and his lieutenants are off limit for example) but it's still a work in progress.

The end result for this system is one that I hope will result in fast paced brutal combat where the tables can turn very quickly. With actions shifting from second to second and attacks focused on trying to disable an opponent (primarily through penalties that weaken their ability to fight back) I hope that it will result in a very hectic and fast paced battle system where players actually end up with a heightened sense of self preservation regarding their character.

At any rate it seems that you and I are interested in a similar form of combat and are both disappointed at how alot of systems out there don't meet our needs. I hope that you are luckier than I am and find something already made that will work for you. If not though there's always customization and I'd be more than happy to go back and forth with you about ideas for such a system.

[Xathan]

Thanks for all the feedback! LC and Steerpike, I agree that some of the best fights come from cinematic descriptions when it comes to most systems, but my players prefer concrete rules and I'm in favor of them as well - that's why it took my so long to get into FATE, and half my gaming group refuses to touch it for most games.

Crow, I love the idea of sliding initiatives the way you described it, with certain actions increasing your initiative to allow you to do more in around as opposed to less.

Nomad...that's a ton of ideas - it looks like you've given this a ton of thought. I'm going to need to take time to digest everything you put in here, because there's a ton of ideas I love, a few I'm uncertain on, and some I'm not sure I like. But it looks like (besides the systems other posters mentioned, which I need to check out for inspiration) we might have to homebrew something. If you're interesting and a collaboration or at least brainstorming session, I'd happily do that on IRC or IM, just because I find that works best in a real time conversation.

I know I missed a lot of points in your posts, but was not expecting to come back after a closing shift to this level of detail. Unfortunately I'm utterly exhausted, so I figured I'd hit my major thoughts and thank you all for your initial feedback, and then wait and see if brain reboots enough to post more detailed responses tonight or just have a go at that tomorrow.

[Xathan]

I'm putting some initial ideas in a spoiler block, because it's very long and I don't want to interrupt your chance to discuss this amongst yourselves in terms beyond what I'm already thinking, because that's proving to be a huge source of inspiration.

[spoiler=Basic Ideas]Okay, so while my brain is too fried to really give direct responses right now, here's some initial ideas that came out of your posts, either directly or because you got me thinking. Also, this was written under the influence of beer, ambien, and Leverage playing in the background, so I apologize for the fact that it's somewhat random.

Initiative '" This becomes are much more important element of combat. Renamed to 'reaction,' it is the measure of how much your character can act within a given, narrow window of time. Reaction is a static stat for each character initially, and is only improved by gaining 'levels' in particular 'classes' or taking particular 'feats' or 'skills' (all of which will be renamed.) More than anything else, Initiative determines both how many actions you can preform per round initially. You reroll Imitative each round, so how much you can do in a round will vary each time.

The Round '" At the beginning of each Round, every player (including the DM) writes down what their character(s) are going to be doing during that round. It's sort of like holding your action in DnD '" you state 'I'm going to open fire on anyone that walks out of that door' or 'I'm going to attack the two guards behind me.' In the latter scenario, the DM may have written down 'One of the guards is going o try and shoot the player'. At that point initiative comes into play '" and since these guards are simple  mooks, the player is able to act to defeat them easily. [note=Enemies Initial Thoughts]This system will divide opponents into 4 main categories: mooks, minions, trained, and experts. Mooks are supposed to be mowed down in great numbers and typically only have a reaction of 1 and always go down in one or two hits, minions can withstand more and pose a semi credible threat in enough numbers, with reactions from 2-4 and can hold up a bit longer, trained are designed to go one on one against a player character and possibly win, experts require the entire team to take down easily.)[/note]

To explain how reaction works, let's look at a simple character that has an initiative of 5. They roll a d6 [note: numbers]these numbers are all being pulled out of my ass '" numbers won't matter until balance becomes a factor[/note] and their d6 roll comes up a 2. That gives them a total of 4 actions this round (React+roll/2). They write on their paper a list 4-1 '" on initiative count 4, they preform action A (punch the guy behind them in the face), on count 3 they preform action B (grab the gun from the guy to the right), on count 2 they preform action C (Duck to avoid any incoming attacks while trying to punch guy on left in knee (see types of actions for why that's possible)), on count 1 they preform action D (Headbutt whomever looks like they're still going strong.) Another player has a total of 5 actions this round. The first thing they do this round happens before anything on our first player's list, and after that what they're trying to do happens simultaneously. If on count 3 they were both going for guy B, unless they were both trying to grab his gun they'd not interfere with each others actions '" if they were both trying to grab the gun, whoever rolled 'Gun grab' best would get it. If on count three guy B was going to try and run, there would be a reaction check to see who acts first (whoever rolls highest) '" which may be the only roll that happens mid combat if all rolls are made when players write their actions down.

Since the actions were written down in advance ( and likely rolled in advance) the only break in the action would happen between rounds, and with higher initiative ranks an entire combat could be over in a single round, keeping the fights flowing smoothly and maintains the feel of simultaneous, fast action that is lost in the 'I go. Now you go. Now she goes. Now he goes' shuffle of most games. The primary issue I see here is if two people with high reaction scores are going up against each other, then they could declare their actions for the round and quickly invalidate what both of them were doing, ending the round early.

Additional Actions '" As you complete particular actions (perhaps criticals, perhaps awarded by the GM, perhaps in other circumstances, haven't decided yet), you gain 'Action Points' which can be spent that round to do something else '" essentially, you can interrupt normal reaction count to insert something between counts '" a sort of true reaction. How exactly this works is unclear in my head, but I like the idea of this as opposed to actually modifying your initiative score '" although an alternative to action points would be a bonus to your initiative on the next round.

Types of Actions: Actions come in 2 types: Movement and Aggressive. A movement action is one that gets your character from point A to point B or grabs some object or breaks something '" basically, any action that does not directly impact another combatant. Aggressive actions do impact other combatants: punching, blocking, grappling, etc.  The important reason for the distinction is because actions of opposing types can be preformed simultaneously '" you can shoot while running with no problem and not having to stop, you can jump and shoot your opponent while overhead, you can grab a knife from your belt while unloading your pistol '" but cannot preform actions at the same time '" if you're going to shoot one person and stab another,

Since I haven't decided on how attacks, defense, and damage works, this is really as far as I can get initially. There's going to be detailed ways for slamming someone head into an object, breaking a limb, etc, but I have to figure out what mechanics govern how you hit someone and how it effects them before I determine how you preform those more detailed actions.

Some of it was inspired by your ideas, some of it was inspired by what was in my own head, some was inspired by watching Elliot in Leverage fight, and some was finally inspired by watching various fast-paced fight scenes from movies I love. I'll be reading over your posts in more detail later and incorporating more from those, but thought I'd see what you all had on my initial thoughts before I forgot them.[/spoiler]

[Nomadic]

I'll wait for you to elaborate before I delve too deeply into this. The one thing I wanted to say though was that I wasn't sure about the written on paper thing as people's actions change depending on how their environment changes (if I'm going to bash a guys head in and my ally blows it away before I can I'm not still going to try to bash it in, the situation has changed). However, I saw your thought further down about points that let you interrupt actions and I think that could be a way to make reaction work. I'll wait and see what you have to say before I make a judgement on that front. If you'd like to toss ideas around though I'm always game. I'm sure we each have ideas that could improve the others.

[Superfluous Crow]

I think the main problem with the system in this early WIP stage is that you don't actually "react". All your actions are pre-planned, so basically your choice of actions have no relation to what others are doing as their actions are an unknown factor in the planning stage. e.g.  your guy would probably rethink his decision to disarm a person if that person just equipped an armed hand grenade.
Another advantage of sliding initiative by the way: you could have attacks that mess up other people's initiative, essentially giving you more time to beat them up.
 
I do love:
1. the added emphasis on reaction/initiative
2. the fast-paced staccato action, where you crunch numbers in between visceral fight scenes.

[Xathan]

@Nomad - would you be up for an idea bouncing session Sunday during the day (between 11-5 CST) or Monday after 3 CST? Those are the soonest times I'll have a chance to sit around for a bit to chat online.

@Both - you guys both have very valid points about the written down system - it's not really reacting. I think I'm going to initially try and keep the idea of you write down your base actions at the beginning of the round because I like how that would pace combat (If you watch most action fight scenes, it seems to me there's a series of attacks, then everyone pauses for a brief beat as people stare in awe, look at the amazing weapon someone pulled out, give each other steely glares, then combat resumes) - and then use "reaction points" or some other mechanism (You'd have a set number per round, perhaps? Or it's based off a dice roll or your initiative count? Or something separate that could theoretically allow a character to only act on ticks 2 and 1, but during those ticks could accomplish as much as a player that started acting on tick 5?)  to allow you to either add a new action during a tick or modify your actions for that tick (The latter only being an option if circumstances change) (Ticks, by the way, are what I'm calling each initiative count - someone with a 4 total would act on 4 ticks of combat). Hopefully we can figure out a way to incorporate the same pacing if players are now making more rolls during the round.

@Superfluous Crow - I agree with you fully on the advantages of sliding initiative - the only problem I have is I realized such a system could be easy to break in the worst way possible. If a player figures how to max out how high their initiative can go then they could potentially act a large number of times before another PC could act (by preforming actions that increase their initiative without really decreasing it much for a bit until they are high enough they can start burning through it), which is a very bad thing since that player hogs the spotlight, and it also still feels like everyone else is standing around while they wait their turn, which is what I'm really trying to avoid.

However, I'm not closed to the idea; if we can come up a way to incorporate sliding initiative within the tick system without that kind of abuse being possible, then I'd love to do it - and if you have any ideas, I'm all ears right now. :)

[Nomadic]

Sunday 11am-5pm is 9am-3pm for me so probably not. Monday is possible but I'm in the Cad Galeor game and I have work later so it would be a tight crunch. The earliest day for me would probably be Tuesday.

you guys both have very valid points about the written down system - it's not really reacting. I think I'm going to initially try and keep the idea of you write down your base actions at the beginning of the round because I like how that would pace combat (If you watch most action fight scenes, it seems to me there's a series of attacks, then everyone pauses for a brief beat as people stare in awe, look at the amazing weapon someone pulled out, give each other steely glares, then combat resumes

It's an interesting thought but in combat everything depends upon how those attacking you are reacting. For example in Aikido if I am going to throw you I must first know that you are attacking me and which "line" you are attacking me along so that I can send you down that line (helping you go where you want to go essentially) at which point I can redirect you down another line or continue down that same line to a point where you overshoot me. In either case the end result is you being thrown or pinned. But I can do neither until I understand your mind. It's much the same in any other close combat art. You have to know your opponents mind. For example if you look at that first clip you linked you'll notice that Bourne doesn't do anything until his opponents are in certain places where he can best counterattack them. What makes the scene so amazing is less how quick it is and more how masterfully he sets up his opponents. Action and reaction is such a key part of combat like that.

In my experience anyways it isn't the roleplay or the plans that take the longest its the dice rolls and calculating up the totals. There are all kinds of things you can do to greatly reduce the time this takes. Firstly keep rolls as simple as possible (avoid huge dice pools, complex calculations, etc). Secondly, have yourself and your players write down their most common rolls (attack, defense, init, etc) on a chart so that they can at a glance know what they need to roll instead of trying to figure it out each turn. Lastly you might set a time limit on turns, the player's character would only have a few moments to react in such a situation and now you're impressing upon them the urgency of their actions. They have x seconds to roleplay out what they do and if they don't they get moved a tick up the initiative scale where they may have to deal with the fact that now an enemy is going at the same time as them or just went and they missed their chance to intercept him.

Additionally what you might do is allow for abilities that can interrupt the initiative and allow the player to counterattack. Again going back to my experience with Aikido this would be something to the effect of anytime an opponent directly attacks a character versed in the art said character may give up their defensive roll and instead make a roll to counterattack by throwing their opponent to the ground. Such an action intercepts another action and attempts to counteract it. I would rule in the example shown that intercepting is considered a full on action and as such after attempting it you have to reroll a new init as you used up a chunk of time completing the counterattack (as opposed to a defense roll where your action to block or dodge them is happening inside the same timespan as their attack). Letting people counterattack and otherwise interrupt opposing actions would I think create a bit more rapid back and forth between opponents.

[sparkletwist]

The problem as I see it is that, generally speaking, for a system to feel "fast-paced," not only does the action need to be fast-paced, but the execution of the system needs to proceed along at a fairly good rate as well. The big problem with a lot of very crunchy, complex systems is that while they have lots of numbers to crunch in order to do what you want, the game slows to a crawl while you figure out what to do. Something like Exalted might have the level of crunch you want (as well as a sliding initiative system based on 'ticks' reminiscent of some of the concepts described here) but the big problem with Exalted combat is that it's slow and there are lots of fiddly rules.

Asura uses a homebrew system heavily inspired by FATE, so it may be a bit too rules-light for you, but the general reliance on fudging anything that doesn't have a simple rule does allow the combat to proceed along at a fairly good pace. I also like and agree with the idea of separating action declaration and action resolution. Writing things down might slow things too much, though.

In Asura, players (and NPCs) roll for initiative and then declare their actions in reverse order of initiative. This is because at this point the actions are just being declared, so characters with better initiative have the advantage of knowing what their slower opponents have planned. After that, all rolls are carried out (this time in initiative order) as though actions are going on at the same time.

[Xathan]

@Nomadic - Tues I have class until 2pmish CST, but should be free after that unless I have to wrangle with financial aid again.

As for the rest of your post: Yes, yes, and yes. This system needs a way for reactions and interrupting - from my own experience with actual fighting (no martial arts, but if you're the class punching bag you either get really good at running or fighting, and I'm a bad runner) - it would have to work that way, and that's also the way it seems to flow in the movies (which is my goal - less simulating real world  combat and more simulating action movie combat.)

I figured that the best way to reduce the rolls breaking flow was to have them done between rounds, but listening to Sparkletwist and you has made me realize the best way to do that is, instead, to make the rules as simple and clear as possible. I would leave something like time limits as a suggestion to DMs, as opposed to a rule of the system, just because how long that should be would have to vary from group to group - one of my groups might get a short time limit, another one which has one person that is awful with rules would need a longer one or she's going to end up just going for very basic things and being bored.

@Sparkletwist - Exalted was way too much crunch, I'll agree with you there - my one attempt at running it finally ended after a single combat took 2 hours and there were still three guys up, so we figured "Bugger this, let's play Arkham Horror and you plan something else" (though Exalted might have subconsciously inspired my ticks) - What I'm looking for, in amount of crunch, is something like Mutants and Masterminds with a bit of some of 4e's simplifications mixed in. (For those not familiar, Mutants and Masterminds was intended as a system to build superheros, but the designer's accidentally created a system where you can create ANY character in ANY fiction - and if you try to contest it with an example, I'll probably be able to either show you someone's build for it. It's one of the best systems ever designed with one major flaw - dual-wielding or multiple attacks per round type situations are either clunky and unwieldy to build, extremely expensive in terms of character creation points, or absurdly overpowered, which is why I'm building this system). How I plan on overcoming the complexity problem is by increasing complexity at character creation to decrease complexity for combat - you'll have individual skills that are broadly defined - "Grappling" for example, would be used to grab someone, disarm someone, and a few other things - and if a character comes up with something that isn't overly stated to be covered by one of the skills, it should be simple enough to figure out which skill most applies to what you're trying to do - if it involves grabbing someone or something their holding, it's grappling, if it involves moving someone from their current spot it's tripping, etc. I'm hoping that will reduce the need for fudging and make things much simpler - "I roll my grapple, he rolls his, winner either has other grabbed or avoids being grabbed."

The reverse initiative thing is awesome - with your permission, I'm going to steal that, because then I can have the players state their actions in reverse order of initiative like that which saves the time of writing down what they're going to be doing - though they have to declare their intended action for each tick of that round at the beginning of the round, not for each tick. I think. *ponders*