Endless Horizons - Magic

[sparkletwist]

Even if it doesn't relate to my setting, what are things that you think the existence of magic would change?

Everything.

I admit it's a pretty glib answer, but it's also true. :grin:

The kind of magic that is being thrown around is immensely powerful stuff. Energy and matter being manipulated on a fundamental level, gateways to wherever... essentially, spellcasters with enough power are capable of the arbitrary bending of reality. Of course, even the simple stuff can lead to some great power. I mean, forget about just getting light from an eternally burning torch, that's an unlimited source of heat. That's industry, electric power-- it's a revolution. Other spells have similar ramifications when you totally think them through.

I mean, this isn't saying you "have" to do anything, because it's your setting, of course, and you should do what you are comfortable with and consider fun! If a Medieval/Renaissance/whatever society is what you want, you can handwave it away, like most of the settings that stay at that level of development do. However, if you want to think of things "realistically," you'll probably have to make some big changes either in magic or in the society, because, as it stands, D&D magic in a medieval society would likely cause a tremendous amount of change.

Of course, if magic has been around for aeons, as it often has, you'd have to explain why this kind of thing hadn't already happened, too.  :D

While I have sometimes lamented that Eberron seems to be loaded down with D&D cliches, the truth is, I do like how Eberron takes magic and gives it a practical side. It shows what a society built around powerful magic might look like, and it shows how various spells could lead to practical uses. I think the scary part in all this is that even Eberron glosses over some of the truly frightening and powerful D&D magic-- things like teleportation and resurrection and wishes start to make the society seem more transhumanist than steampunk.

But then again, a magic-powered transhumanist setting would be pretty awesome. :D

[Xathan]

...magic-powered transhumanist setting...

Must..resist...temptation.

[Xeviat]

Humabout, I want guns that are only marginally better than crossbows; in game rules, they'd be "martial crossbows". There's just no way that a world like mine, with its knowledge of magic and alchemy (magical chemistry) wouldn't have figured out gunpowder. I figure it's an invention made by tritons and dwarves working together. Magic could definitely stand in for improved farming techniques, blast furnaces, and the exploration related navigation and sailing ships (just think of what an air mage could do to a sailing ship).

I've always imagined a burgeoning middle class in my setting. I already have plans on a merchant's guild turned thieve's guild that influences the senate in my chief nation. I already have a republic that has risen out of the remnants of dark age monarchies, which they themselves rose out of the shattered remnants of an old empire.

What I mean by "cusp of the renaissance" is that the whole world isn't there yet. Hunerst (the republic previously mentioned) is; think of it as Italy in this case. I only mentioned trains because Eberron, a setting that gets a lot of good praise for blending magic and society well, has trains. I don't want my world to feel as industrial as Eberron, so something like Eberron's past may be good.

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Sparkletwist, I definitely want to go for a "believable" setting. One of the principals I've been working towards, something I think you noticed in my genesis thread, is that I am approaching the creation of my setting as if I were making a Science Fiction story. Science Fiction deals with how the "other" affects society. My world has several others: magic, spirits, and other sentient humanoids than humans. The building of this setting is an exercise for me, to create a believable fantasy world. Stories within it are very much fantasy, being about the journeys of the heroes, but Star Wars was also a fantasy story when you get down to it.

Magic has been around for all of "history", including the time before history; I just haven't decided how long that history and pre-history are, since I'm not sure how magic would speed up advancement.

I don't want it to look like standard D&D, which is just medieval Europe with magic, monsters, and alternate races dropped in.

I may have to read more of Eberron than I have. I do like the idea of working class spellcasters. I don't think a paragon level wizard is going to be content with being a wage slave for someone, but an ex-adventurer could very much settle down and start a business based on teleporting senators around from their home district to the capitol ...

Really looking for examples of things that would HAVE to change with the presence of D&D-esque magic, both to know what to change and to know which spells to flat out remove (like wishes).

[sparkletwist]

Really looking for examples of things that would HAVE to change with the presence of D&D-esque magic, both to know what to change and to know which spells to flat out remove (like wishes).

D&D-esque magic is an odd thing because spells are written up for a specific purpose in the game, but at the same time, each spell has so much power behind it that is left unstated, and, usually, not even considered.

I would think that if we assume that the spells as written are only good for the narrow purposes they've been written up for, these spells are static throughout the entire course of history, and that people in the setting never experiment or make any attempt to go beyond these spells as written-- well, in all honesty, not much would have to change, because that's kind of how D&D is written up. However, that also means that you're pretty much in perpetual medieval stasis and the people of your world are a bunch of dullards incapable of innovation. That's probably not what you want.

Let's look at three cantrips from Pathfinder: Acid Splash, Jolt, and Ray of Frost. As written, they're just dinky little 1d3 damage cantrips. However, the fact that these are cantrips that pretty much any arcane caster can throw around has some pretty big societal ramifications that I think go pretty well ignored by most people. Granted, this is mostly because they'd probably rather handwave it away and play "normal D&D." However, trying to think about it realistically, we've got the ability to spontaneously generate acid, electricity, and cold in enough quantity that it can do a decent amount of harm to a humanoid body. This opens a lot of doors.

Depending on what kind of acid is produced by Acid Splash, its applications vary, but it's the basis for a lot of interesting chemistry, certainly. At the very least, as soon as this spell is known, anything medieval alchemy could do will soon become doable, and the possibilities will only increase from there as people start researching the effects of the spell. A lot of what was holding early chemists back was the inability to produce enough of what they needed, and being able to snap your fingers and create a blob of needed materials would certainly put a huge dent in those problems. Jolt is electricity, pure and simple, and I'm not sure what more needs to be said about that. What resource is more essential for a "modern" society than electricity? And here we have every caster who has studied cantrips able to create it at will. The properties and uses of electricity would likely be researched just as quickly and diligently as those of chemistry. Finally, Ray of Frost gives the ability to create cold at will. Naturally, this is a huge leap for all sorts of food preservation, not to mention greatly increasing productivity in warmer climates. It also doesn't say how cold things can get, which would mean that cyrogenics also become a real possibility. Oh, and put Jolt and Ray of Frost together and you can start experimenting with superconductivity.

So, we've gone from nothing to a society with a burgeoning chemical industry, electricity, and refrigeration, with a bunch of other stuff just around the corner-- and that's just with three cantrips and probably no more than 100 years of diligent research. My mind boggles at what advances would then occur on top of these, or what introducing the full D&D spellbook would do to a society.

While one way to curb the trend may seem to be to make casters more rare, I don't think it is. I doubt if it really matters whether casters are rare or not. If casting ability is common, then casters themselves will become a sort of labor force behind "industrial magic," but all rarer casters means is that the push will be towards producing magic items that can perform the same jobs. Once something becomes possible, people will clamor for it, either from the top down (rulers demanding the very best), the bottom up (the masses wanting a better life) or, perhaps even, both.

[Xeviat]

I'm not going to have magic being always static. Like I said earlier, I'd like to think that the "technology of magic" has evolved over the course of its advancement. This isn't just the devices; perhaps higher level spells weren't invented until later, or even some weren't invented till later.

As for those evocations, I'm not sure the material of an evocation stays around. In fact, I'm pretty sure they explicitly didn't stay around. The effects stay around, but I don't think you could use Jolt to charge a battery. Then again, having it disappear would have to reverse chemical reactions if you were to Jolt a used electrolite solution ... so ... perhaps that's a rule that should be abandoned. Except for the acid, that's matter, but I forget if Acid Splash was a conjuration or not. Doesn't matter, perhaps they go away, which could limit this, but not if a magic item was made.

So, at the very least, with the ability to produce cold, electricity, acid, and heat at a moments notice, there would be the ability to create magic items that did the same thing rather early on. Likely, this means the time from bronze age to renaissance is going to be shorter, likely considerably shorter than the 6,000 years from the time of the pyramids to the 14th century (humans start off at pyramid tech because that was the tech of their giant masters).

If magic items are expensive, and they were in 3E, they're going to be out of the hands of the poor. I'd probably need to figure out pricing for some of those basic things and then decide on average wages before being able to eyeball anything like that under the virtues of the game.

[sparkletwist]

I'd like to think that the "technology of magic" has evolved over the course of its advancement. This isn't just the devices; perhaps higher level spells weren't invented until later, or even some weren't invented till later.

I like this approach.
A perfectly good answer for "Why hasn't this spell changed the world yet?" is "They didn't discover it until very recently," of course. :D

As for those evocations, I'm not sure the material of an evocation stays around.

You might be right. I freely admit I may have gotten some details wrong; it was more a thought experiment illustrate the point that D&D spells, taken to their logical conclusions, can have pretty far-reaching effects on a world.

If magic items are expensive, and they were in 3E, they're going to be out of the hands of the poor.

Maybe, but remember, 3E was based on the "medieval stasis with magic that has no real societal ramifications" model. If casters are somewhat rare, there's probably going to be a push into making magic items into a commodity that everyone can afford.

[Xeviat]

I was thinking about this all day, and something clicked while I was doing my taxes, and it was reaffirmed later when I went to Target.

I made 13k last year. That puts me only a few thousand above the poverty line individually; luckily my wife makes more than me. Either way, together we only made 33k. But I have a sweet desktop computer with two monitors, a decent car, a lot of video games, and the money to buy gaming books and eat out regularly. I have a lot of stuff that would make one think I wasn't "poor", and despite the low amount of our income, I don't feel poor (except when rent voids my bank account).

Computer engineers are rare. Not everyone can build a computer from scratch. But most people of low income can still afford to buy a computer now a days, especially an economy computer. People have them because someone makes money off of selling it to them. If magic items exist, then people are going to make money selling them to them if the costs of making them can be reduced. So even if casters are rare, all that might mean is that those casters are going to be very rich (and their will probably be prestigious schools vying for money to make money off of those future casters).

Things are likely going to feel more modern. If they can feel more modern but still have the trappings of medieval/renaissance, then I'm all for it. If most people of some amount of prosperity are able to buy a "cold brick" to put in an icebox to keep their food refrigerated, then they're going to do that.

One thought on potentially limiting things like that would be if magic items aren't permanent. Batteries run out, after all, so why can't magic? I'd have to adjust the way magic items are explained in the world, but that is a possible crutch to fall back on if I don't want magic to take over the world so fast.

[Xeviat]

I have been reading Codex Alera, by Jim Butcher of Dresden Files fame, and the first thing that came to my mind is how annoying it is that their magic system is so much like what I've envisioned for my world. Luckily, we're both deriving our ideas from old sources, but still, I'm going to hate to hear the comparisons.

This book has me thinking more and more, and again, about utilizing different classes for my setting. At the very least, I'm not sure I can manage the same half-casters (bard, paladin, ranger, etc). I would very much like to reopen this discussion.

Codex Alera also has given me more fuel for thoughts on how magic would influence society. Their world has a very romanesque feel, yet they have things like magical city lights, cold boxes, roads that allow for fast travel, communication using magic through the rivers, and even aerial transportation. But there world is a world where all humans have some proficiency with their magic. It creates a very interesting thing (though it wouldn't be hard to imagine the setting where the lei commoners who aren't very skilled with magic to have no magic what-so-ever).

Also, I have cracked a mental block that was keeping me from pairing down the effects of the elements within the bodies of people. I took a step back and looked at the elements thematically, and not from the confines of the game. What I began to realize was that Strength should be Earth, and Fire should be something more like Vitality. I'm also considering separating mental and social stats, like World of Darkness does, though this may be harder to do while still leaving stats equal with their peers.

[Superfluous Crow]

The idea of wealthy aristocrat-casters is too good to pass up, please continue with that!
Can your magic do anything just like the magic in D&D? Or is there a limit to what is conceivable/possible?
Now admittedly I didn't read the first page of this thread (or if I did it was a while ago), but an interesting approach would be to consider magic as a pure source and then put some limits on what it can and cannot do. Once you have these Laws of Supernature down you should start seeing emerging patterns and uses.
This approach is especially cool because the uses follow from the rules, not the other way around, so you don't have to start with "I want Cold Bricks" and then figure out what rules would make that possible. You make the magic and then you figure out how to make a cold brick.     

[Xeviat]

The idea of wealthy aristocrat-casters is too good to pass up, please continue with that!

Will do. I'm liking it more too. It seems too natural for it to not occur, except for there also being a lower-class mage workforce like in Eberron.

Can your magic do anything just like the magic in D&D? Or is there a limit to what is conceivable/possible?

I've always operated under the thought that "anything" would be doable with enough work, though that could change.

Now admittedly I didn't read the first page of this thread (or if I did it was a while ago), but an interesting approach would be to consider magic as a pure source and then put some limits on what it can and cannot do. Once you have these Laws of Supernature down you should start seeing emerging patterns and uses.
This approach is especially cool because the uses follow from the rules, not the other way around, so you don't have to start with "I want Cold Bricks" and then figure out what rules would make that possible. You make the magic and then you figure out how to make a cold brick.    

Very possible. Mostly that last part comes down to whether or not I want magic items to be permanent things.

From what you understand of what I'm going for, do you have any thoughts of effects that you think shouldn't be possible? I do think raising the dead shouldn't be possible with a standard spell (though resuscitating someone who just died should be), and perhaps creating matter from nothing could be limited (or at least permanent matter).

[Xeviat]

Resurrecting this thread with a bit of thread necromancy. I came up with a few things over the last ... wow ... five months. I'm setting aside my crunch work to work on setting fluff again, as crunch work has severely roadblocked. This issue, though, is half in crunch and half in fluff; it's definitely a case where both the crunch and fluff are going to influence each other. Since the nature of magic will influence the entire setting (and I'm about to start on a long thought process on the progression of the world's races from ancient times to now), it's something I need to pin down first.

But I also need to decide upon the nature of the spellcasters themselves. I keep coming back to the same question I've asked here, and I'm tallying up the votes on each side. I've narrowed down my thoughts to the following:

Magic is divided into the 4 elements (Air, Fire, Earth, and Water), as well as 4 spheres (Elemental, Mental, Physical, and Spiritual). They all wrap around in circles with each other this way. Thus, the 4 different primary casters each take up 1 side of a grid of the spheres, each having access to 2 spheres. Mages (Arcane) use Elemental and Mental magics. "Psions" (Ki) use Mental and Physical magics. Priests (Divine) use Physical and Spiritual magics. Shaman (Primal) use Spiritual and Elemental magics.

Then, each of the "half-casters" each only has access to 1 sphere. Paladins use Spiritual, Channelers use Elemental (a class concept for the "endless combat magic" style class, sort of like the benders from Avatar), Bards use Mental, and Monks use Physical. These could get altered, but that's the base concept.

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A side issue, though, is dealing with the elements themselves. I currently have para-elements between each of the elements: Cold is air/water, lightning is air/fire, metal is earth/fire, and plants are earth/water. The trouble is that I cannot think of anything non-elemental about these; no physical or mental components really come to mind that don't cause other problems. I was able to conceptualize splitting my 8 attributes amongst each of the elements, but the end results for the magics end up being strange:

Air is Perception (Divination)
Lightning is Agility (Travel)
Fire is Charisma (Charm)
Metal is Stamina (Protection)
Earth is Strength (Destruction)
Wood is Wisdom (Creation)
Water is Dexterity (Transformation)
Cold is Intelligence (Illusion)

But I'm not sure those associations work well enough. Flight and speed would be fitting for Air, while teleportation would be fine limited to lightning (a good way of keeping it out of low levels). Some of the other associations are kind of weird. Which means I might only be able to use the para-elements for raw elemental effects; that seems like it would really lessen them, and I might as well just put them in with the element they individually fit with the most.

Thoughts?