What Happened to d20?

[Lmns Crn]

On the other hand, I always thought the named person spells had dumb names. My campaign setting probably never had anyone named Melf, and I'd rather the broad rules like spell names not try to insert the flavor of someone else's setting into mine. I suppose to each his own, then.

Actually, all of those spells are renamed in the SRD (and presumably need to be renamed in anybody's published d20-based settings) because those namesake NPC wizards are not OGL.

[LordVreeg]

spellcasting  (and magic) is one of those places I get heretical.  I know Vancian magic was there from the beginning, but it is such a narrow fit in terms of fluff...One of the biggest reasons I had to go homebrew in the beginning is that Vancian magic's fire and forget/spell slots per level fits a certain type of fluff and game, and not others.
And, on the other side, creating spells for the game is a neverending source of quiet joy; each one another brick in the wall of versimilitude.

[Humabout]

You know, LordVreeg, that was the first thing that slapped me in the face way back in highschool when a friend tried to explain in AD&D to me.  We argued for an entire lunch about how silly it was that a wizard would just forget what he knew a moment before.  Even with slightly different fluff, it never sat well with me, and it eventually drove me to just start making new spellcaster classes in 3.x.  There were a lot of cool options for magic 3.x, but ultimately, redesigning classes to fit the fluff got tiring (even if I did enjoy it).

It's like has been mentioned.  In d20, the fluff is intrinsic to the classes, so it tends to necessitate class genesis everytime you make a new setting.  The same can be said for other Gurps, too (see Dungeon Fantasy templates for an exampel), but I guess I like having the option to not restrict anyone's character creation process unduely (yeah, I don't allow fantasy barbarians to have points in Bioengineering; sue me).

[Lmns Crn]

(yeah, I don't allow fantasy barbarians to have points in Bioengineering; sue me).

Pardon me, I was just having a daydream about the kind of setting where this might be appropriate. Sorry if I spaced out there for a minute.

[O Senhor Leetz]

spellcasting  (and magic) is one of those places I get heretical.  I know Vancian magic was there from the beginning, but it is such a narrow fit in terms of fluff...One of the biggest reasons I had to go homebrew in the beginning is that Vancian magic's fire and forget/spell slots per level fits a certain type of fluff and game, and not others.
And, on the other side, creating spells for the game is a neverending source of quiet joy; each one another brick in the wall of versimilitude.

To be the Devil's Advocate here, it is somewhat easy to create new spell-casting classes for a particular campaign (Vancian magic aside) simply by plugging in spells form the list and aiming for a certain aesthetic.

The classic magic school wizards aside, I think there are lots of possibilities if a.) someone wants to work a little bit and b.) no one is a balance fascist, since undoubtedly spell-casting classes with flavor in mind will not all end up equal, the Soothsayers of Nym, with detect alignment and alarm will not be nearly as useful in combat as the Ash-Eaters who fling fireballs, lay down wall of flame and blast everything with scorching hands.

[Kindling]

I like d20 a lot, mostly due to familiarity. It and other DnD-type games seem by far the best fit in my mind when it comes to a class-and-level game. To be fair, the 3.x/3.5 implied setting was too high-magic for my taste, and although I'm not familiar with Pathfinder, I'd guess it's the same. That's a personal aesthetic issue though, and Iron Heroes and other variants fix this more than adequately, as far as I'm concerned.

[Lmns Crn]

[d20] and other DnD-type games seem by far the best fit in my mind when it comes to a class-and-level game.

On the other hand, though, how many other class-and-level type games can you think of? I'm sort of coming up empty.

[LordVreeg]

[d20] and other DnD-type games seem by far the best fit in my mind when it comes to a class-and-level game.

On the other hand, though, how many other class-and-level type games can you think of? I'm sort of coming up empty.

tunnels and trolls, the fantasy trip, C&S, al come to mind quickly

[Humabout]

To be the Devil's Advocate here, it is somewhat easy to create new spell-casting classes for a particular campaign (Vancian magic aside) simply by plugging in spells form the list and aiming for a certain aesthetic.

The classic magic school wizards aside, I think there are lots of possibilities if a.) someone wants to work a little bit and b.) no one is a balance fascist, since undoubtedly spell-casting classes with flavor in mind will not all end up equal, the Soothsayers of Nym, with detect alignment and alarm will not be nearly as useful in combat as the Ash-Eaters who fling fireballs, lay down wall of flame and blast everything with scorching hands.

Honestly, some of the most enjoyable classes I made involved only a hint of vancian casting.  My best was probably a blood sorcerer type that used some vancian casting mixed with warlock-style invocations.  I don't recall limiting the lists, but rather flavoring castign options.  And even that aside, writing new spells is just plain fun.

As far as balance is concerned, I think that largely depends on the applications the class excells at.  Mr. Pyro might be awesome in combat, but his lack of subtlty could get him into trouble in a political campaign.  In that arena, your soothsayer sounds like a natural.  Across the entire spectrum of adventurers, they might be perfectly balanced, but their usefulness in a given situation certainly isn't.

[Lmns Crn]

Yeah, my favorite Vancian-style magic thing is in Amber Diceless, where you typically "hang" spells in advance of when you need them because they take a long time to perform from scratch, but you can essentially make up whatever spells you want, so there's none of this element of choosing from a list. It's more of a "here's the basic set of guidelines for wielding these primal forces, see what you can come up with, try not to get caught with your pants down."

It's a unique sort of ability in the game, though (and there are numerous magic-like powers that do not work that way at all), so it's definitely something that players can either use and enjoy or skip without missing much, depending on whether they have the "invent everything in advance" mindset or not.

[sparkletwist]

I like the "hanging" the spells approach, too, or, really, even just 3e's change in parlance from "memorizing" a spell to "preparing" a spell. It seems to make a lot more sense that the spell requires some advanced preparation and the actual casting is just finishing a very long incantation-- rather than the whole idea of completely forgetting the spell from one's mind.

I'm not a huge fan of "Vancian" stuff in general, really. I definitely don't like 4e which kind of pushed everyone in that direction. :P

Personally, as a bit of a tangent, I'll say that I really like more "freeform" power schemes like Ars Magica and such. It allows GMs to really develop a power and its various uses, and players to have a lot of flexibility and really feel like they've mastered this magical power they hold in their hands. In addition, it forces the GM to really think through the ramifications and potential alternate uses of a certain variety of magic, which a lot of spell lists focused on a single task tend to greatly neglect.