Fimbulvinter

[sparkletwist]

Dagny also could prepare and cast mount as many times as needed to haul the stuff. It just creates a horse (and the necessary gear) but not a cart or anything like that, so we'd have to load it onto the horse's back. Still, with no rider around 200 lbs of loot per horse would be perfectly reasonable, I'd think. We could also combine it with the ant haul thing so the horses could haul the excess and that way Kylfa wouldn't have to mess around with heavy encumbrance.

[Polycarp]

Yeah, and mount lasts just as long as ant haul.  Furthermore, making a travois is pretty easy (and it works in snow), and creatures can drag 5x their max weight limit.  Putting a heavy load on a (conjured) horse doesn't really matter at all because its base speed (50) is so much higher than ours already.

I'll have Kylfa prepare one instance of Ant Haul for the next day/session.

[sparkletwist]

Items crafted with snow shape harden into "super-hard ice" so we could also craft something out of snow and it'd probably hold up.

[Polycarp]

Items crafted with snow shape harden into "super-hard ice" so we could also craft something out of snow and it'd probably hold up.

I did not know about this spell, and it turns out it's only a 1st level spell for a druid.  Huh.

On an unrelated note, if we get downtime soon I hope Dagny is up for some scribing.  I just learned that you can cooperatively craft scrolls...

[sparkletwist]

On an unrelated note, if we get downtime soon I hope Dagny is up for some scribing.  I just learned that you can cooperatively craft scrolls...

If you're talking about Dagny scribing spell scrolls of Druid spells for Kylfa to use later, unfortunately, I think it won't work. Scrolls are explicitly arcane or divine, based on the spellcasting type of the character scribing the scroll, and characters can't use the "wrong" kind. That means any scroll that Dagny scribed would be unusable by Kylfa without a UMD check.

Amusingly enough, that also means Dagny could scribe a scroll that she herself couldn't use, if it involved a spell not on her list. I have this funny mental image of Kylfa grunting out an explanation of something to do with communing with bear spirits and Dagny doing her best to transcribe it in the arcane (pun intended) dialect of Dvergar she uses for scroll-writing... and when she's done, neither of them have any idea what she just wrote down.

[Polycarp]

If you're talking about Dagny scribing spell scrolls of Druid spells for Kylfa to use later, unfortunately, I think it won't work. Scrolls are explicitly arcane or divine, based on the spellcasting type of the character scribing the scroll, and characters can't use the "wrong" kind. That means any scroll that Dagny scribed would be unusable by Kylfa without a UMD check.

Word of god SKR is that it will absolutely work, even with arcane/divine.

As for the type of scroll created, our beloved SKR says it's not a problem either.  To wit:

No, they'd [a wizard and cleric] be making a divine scroll of cure light wounds because the wizard is just writing down, in magical-writing-form, the power of the cleric's divine cure light wounds spell. If the wizard and cleric were cooperating to make a scroll of resurrection, you wouldn't think it was an arcane version of the resurrection spell, right? Because no arcane class has resurrection on its spell list and nobody would be able to cast that scroll without using UMD.

Dagny and Kylfa together meet the requirements to create, say, a scroll of cure light wounds - Dagny has the feat, Kylfa has the spell (and both have the skill, though Dagny's is better).  The spell used is a druidic/divine spell of cure light wounds, so the result is likewise a divine scroll of cure light wounds.  The fact that Dagny is an arcane caster is not an issue, nor is the fact that she, not Kylfa, has the scribe scroll feat.  For the purposes of item creation, Dagny is just a contributor fulfilling one of the requirements (namely, the Scribe Scroll feat), and is not privileged as the "creator" of the item.  Only the spell cast determines the scroll type, nothing else.  The result is that Dagny would not be able to use the resulting scroll without UMD even though she had a hand in making it, but Kylfa would be able to use it just fine.

I have this funny mental image of Kylfa grunting out an explanation of something to do with communing with bear spirits and Dagny doing her best to transcribe it in the arcane (pun intended) dialect of Dvergar she uses for scroll-writing... and when she's done, neither of them have any idea what she just wrote down.

It's going to be just like this, except Kylfa is going to nod and grunt approvingly over the final product, which makes perfect sense to him, while Dagny wonders what the hell she just wrote. :P

[sparkletwist]

Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)

This is where I got my feeling from. It seems like it's saying arcane casters create arcane scrolls and divine casters create divine scrolls, and that's all there is to it. You say that only the spell cast determines the scroll type but that bit up there seems to suggest that only the scroll writer's class determines the scroll type.

If Steerpike agrees that it works, though, it's not like I'd say no to being able to do more stuff... :grin:

[Polycarp]

(This is condensed from a chat discussion we're having right now!)

The cooperative crafting/SKR logic basically goes like this:  When two or more spellcasters are crafting together, they are communally "the creator."  The person who happens to have the feat is just fulfilling one requirement; the person with the spell is fulfilling another.  Neither is privileged as "the creator," because all of them are collectively "the creator" as long as they are fulfilling a requirement.  "Having the crafting feat" is a requirement just like "having the spell" or, for something like Boots of Elvenkind, "being an elf."  The only difference between them is that "having the crafting feat" is not a requirement you can ever circumvent by raising the Spellcraft DC, unlike most other requirements.

Anything elsewhere in the rules that refers to the creator of the magic item is thus, in a cooperative situation, referring to the "crafting team" as a whole.

Thus, when the scroll chapter says "the type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class," in a communal situation "the character" (that is, the creating/crafting character) is actually "the crafting team."  In communal crafting, requirements need only be met by one member of the team, including that one.  Therefore, as long as you have one member of the team who has the correct class, you can make such a scroll.  A Wizard/Sorc team couldn't make a divine scroll, but a Cleric/Wizard team could.  In exactly the same way, a Human/Dwarf team could not make Boots of Elvenkind (at least, not without raising their Spellcraft DC), but a Human/Elf team could, even if the Human was the one with the Craft Wondrous Item feat.

One big reason for the wording issues is that, as far as I'm aware, the cooperative crafting rules are new for Pathfinder, while all that other magic item stuff is largely legacy material from 3rd.  The Pathfinder devs added the cooperative crafting stuff, but did not then go on a thorough examination and revision of all the magic item and crafting text to bring it all into line with their new system.  I'm no big SKR fan or anything, but I take him at his explicit word that the intent of himself and the Paizo design team was to make a cooperative crafting option that allowed, among other things, divine/arcane crafting teams to function.

[Steerpike]

Having gradually unclenched over Pathinder RAW, I'm fine with just not worrying about the arcane/divine distinction for scroll crafting and cooperative crafting generally. Go for it.

[sparkletwist]

One interesting little trick completely removing the divide allows is that a wizard and a cleric/druid/whatever can work together to scribe a scroll of a spell that is on both of their lists-- which the divine caster just gets, because they just get all their spells-- and then the wizard can learn the spell from the scroll. It's kind of roundabout and costs gp and time so it's not like it's a game-winning exploit, but I'm not sure if you intended it as an outcome.

[Steerpike]

I'm fine with it.  :)

Sounds like research to me.

[Polycarp]

One interesting little trick completely removing the divide allows is that a wizard and a cleric/druid/whatever can work together to scribe a scroll of a spell that is on both of their lists-- which the divine caster just gets, because they just get all their spells-- and then the wizard can learn the spell from the scroll. It's kind of roundabout and costs gp and time so it's not like it's a game-winning exploit, but I'm not sure if you intended it as an outcome.

If it's true that a wizard can copy a divine scroll of bull's strength into her spellbook, then even without cooperative crafting, Kylfa could take the Scribe Scroll feat, create a scroll, and hand it to Dagny for her to copy into her spellbook as an arcane spell of bull's strength.  The only difference cooperative crafting brings to the table is that Kylfa can now create that scroll without having to take the feat, because Dagny is providing it as part of the "team."  Either way, cooperative or not, a divine scroll is being produced.

The point is, I think that "trick" already existed; it's not really an outcome produced by cooperative crafting.

[sparkletwist]

Either way, cooperative or not, a divine scroll is being produced.

Give it a rest already. It's a moot point for the purpose of this game.  :P

The point is, I think that "trick" already existed; it's not really an outcome produced by cooperative crafting.

I know. I was saying it's an outcome produced by removing the distinction between arcane and divine scrolls.  :P

[Polycarp]

I know. I was saying it's an outcome produced by removing the distinction between arcane and divine scrolls.  :P

Ah, I got you.  See, the thing is, there's apparently an active (?) debate on whether this is already a thing you can do in Pathfinder, even with the "divine/arcane" distinction fully in effect.  (Because, as usual, the rules are vague and inconsistent.)

[Steerpike]

Frankly, it's a little weird to even have an arcane/divine distinction in a world where the principle deity is also the god of magic.

That said Norse culture (and its attitudes towards magic) was as weird and contradictory as the Pathfinder RAW, so maybe it's a marriage made in Asgard...