The Republic Reborn

[Nomadic]

[ic=Letter to Hugo De Vinti]
Indeed my friend, you have my support. I have received word that the chamberlain wishes to speak with me and I would assume that you have likewise been contacted. Perhaps it would be good for you if this is so to respond promptly and to keep me informed as to the nature of your response. I will follow your lead on this.
[/ic]

[LD]

[ooc]*How are the monks at Santa Maria responding to the change in ownership? And how are the common people responding?


*Congratulations on beginning Grad School![/ooc]

[LD]

[ic=to the senate]
Unlike Senator Sismondii, I do find fault with the first proposition of Consul Basile. Times of war or civil strife are precisely when the Consuls' actions need to be able to be reviewed. The Consuls may still act as they will- in the moment making the best decisions to serve Rome- but any enduring policies should be able to be prorogued by the Senate. Do we not all recall that more time each year has been spent in war or civil strife than has been spent in peace? To allow for the exception that Consul Basile recommends would be to render the veto power worth far far less than I believe Senator Sismondii and other fine Equites intend.

Regarding the ecclesiastical consul- I can see good arguments for a specialist consul who can focus on establishing a working relationship with the Church. However, I can also see good arguments made by Consul Basile that a lesser representative may be better so as to eliminate a muddying of Rome's message. A question does arise however- is the relationship with the Church a matter for the Interior or Exterior Consul? Or is it sometimes a matter for one or the other? The Church IS part of Rome since the pope sits here, which would imply that it should be a matter for the Interior consul rather than the Exterior consul. But the Church is not under Rome's laws, which would imply that it is a mater for the Exterior consul. Unless the matter of responsibility is decided here and now, I would suggest a third consul should be appointed to solve this unique situation. However, I believe we can solve this dilemma of responsibility here today. What say you? Is the relationship with the Church a matter for the Interior or the Exterior? Or are certain church matters to be divided between the Consuls' portfolios.

As to the third matter;

RE:- That any Roman citizen may offer themselves as a replacement for an existing open position in the senate (vacated by death or other tragedy) to the senate who may accept or reject their offer based on its merit and their ability to perform the duties of senator. The candidate that wishes to seek the office of a senator which has been vacated by death or other tragedy must have the support of every two of three senators within the senatory body to proceed to election.
--->So we only will have elections when a senator dies or is found unfit? If so, Manzinni, supports this.

"- A member of the senate may present a vote of no confidence in another senator. However, such a vote must come with proof that the senator in question has used their position as senator to commit acts directly contrary to the good of Rome and their position and that they have sought their own personal gain to the detriment of the senate and the Romans. In order for the vote to be achieved there must be senatory consensus that the person in question has indeed acted in this matter. Upon consensus the person shall be stripped of their position and it shall be offered up to potential candidates."
Regarding senatory consensus, you mean 2 of 3 senators? Or do you mean a simple majority? I would also reformulate the acts as
a. Have committed an act directly contrary to the good of rome and their position
b. Which is an act that leads to their own personal gain and the detriment of Rome
I also ask this OOC: What is the current plan for removing a senator? Is it at the will of the Consuls? If that's the case, then I vote for this. If a senator cannot be removed currently, then I vote for no removal because "the regulation is entirely too vague and can lead to the exercise of personal vendettas so as to snarl the business of the Senate"

[/ic]

[Nomadic]

So we only will have elections when a senator dies or is found unfit?

correct.

Regarding senatory consensus, you mean 2 of 3 senators? Or do you mean a simple majority?

By consensus I mean that if even one senator is against it the resolution will not pass (obviously the person under review cannot vote). This is to stop the majority from kicking out or weakening minority groups they don't agree with within the senate. You would only be able to realistically kick someone out who had fallen so far out of favor that the senate unanimously agreed that they were a detriment to the government of Rome. You will note that I say against it, a senator could abstain from the vote (perhaps it is a good friend and they do not feel they could be honest in their vote) and the resolution to strip the accused's title could still pass.

What is the current plan for removing a senator?

The current method is... well, there is no current method. From what I've gotten from Polycarp if a senator becomes unpopular enough they can be removed from the senate, he's never actually detailed how. That's why I decided to codify it, because we have no current plan for what would happen if we needed to kick out a senator.

[Polycarp]

[ic=To Consul de Vinti]Unfortunately, Consul, we have far fewer copyists than we would like, and those we have are busy with the Lord's work in the present time.  You are welcome to send your own scribe to work in our archive, but documents cannot be removed from the premises.

Benedictus, Canon Regular[/ic]

(Canon Regular or Can. Reg. is simply a monk under the Augustinian Rule - the oldest monastic rule - as opposed to a Benedictine or Cistercian.)

[ic=To Consul de Vinti]Consul,

If you are asking whether I, as a Patrician of the Commune, will perform my duties in the fulfillment of the Senate's demands should the Senate and People of Rome be threatened by the Frangipani, then my answer is that I will certainly do so.  If, on the other hand, you are asking my support from one eques and citizen to another, then it is a very different matter.  I have the utmost respect for you, Consul, but this man Capocci is obviously out of his depth, and I am reluctant to be associated with his recent actions without knowing more of what it is you intend and what it is you desire of me beyond the vague matter of "support."

Patrician Giordano Pierleone[/ic]

[ic=To Consul de Vinti]Cease?  My dear consul, you must not have noticed that we're winning.  Letting up on them will send a message to everyone that one letter to the Curia is sufficient to send us scurrying away.  My men and I have been risking our lives daily for this little project of yours, and it seems to me that this is a perfect opportunity for you to take an active role in it yourself.  I'm sure you'll find a way to buy us some time.

Niccolo[/ic]

How are the monks at Santa Maria responding to the change in ownership? And how are the common people responding?

The monks and priests of Santa Maria in Via Lata are, so far, not responding, though it should be noted that their lands in the region have avoided most of the collateral damage of the barons' war, as the vicarius - the lay administrator of their lands in the region - has yet to involve himself in the fight, and as a result Capocci has ignored him.  Also, the Cardinal-Deacon of Santa Maria in Via Lata died last year, and the Pope did not appoint a new one before leaving on campaign, so they are experiencing something of a leadership gap right now.

Nobody has thought to ask what the common people think.  Their opinions are not considered very valuable.  They simply try to stay as far away from any fighting as they can.

*Congratulations on beginning Grad School!

Thanks!  I'm moving tomorrow, by the way, so I'm unlikely to be here or on chat until Tuesday evening at the earliest.

[Magnus Pym]

[ic=Privately to Niccolo Capocci]The Church will have nothing to say next season. However, for the time being we must not cause the ire of the Curia by appearing hostile to them and their subject, lest my current plans be for naught.
To buy us time, the best thing you can do is tone down the violence, at least, if not cease altogether. Of course, as ever, we must defend ourselves. But we must not attack.[/ic]

[ic=Letter to Patrician Giordano Pierleone]Patrician,
Signore Capocci, unlike the rumors, has only acted in my best interests and those of the Romans he saved. When fellow Romans I had invited touched ground in Labarum, they were immidiately chased away, quite violently, by the local barons.
As they were chased away by swords and foul words, Capocci came to the rescue and defended them with his life. He deserves respect for this.

As for this vague notion of support; I hate to impose my vision of support on other people. Though, if the Frangipani were to use force then the matter of support becomes quite obvious; you could provide me with men.
Besides, this matter is not whether you side with the good signore Capocci or not. It is if you side with the prospect of prosperity for all Romans, or not. Because Labarum's fields will only have one use, and it is to create wealth for the Roman people. Even if it is a private initiative.

Sincerely,
Hugo De Vinti[/ic]

[LD]

Polycarp- Maybe I misunderstood? I thought the Knights Templar took over the Church in Ripe et Marmorae?  I was asking my questions re: "Santa Maria in Aventino"- the one in my district so that I can figure out how to respond to the Knights Templar. And since I have to live with the peasants in my district, it does matter to me what they might think.

Also, what does Manzinni know about the Knights Templar and politics of them vis a vis the French priests and other foreign priests in the churches I have been protecting?

[Polycarp]

Ah!  See, there is more than one Santa Maria; I thought you were talking about Santa Maria in Via Lata, which is related to the current Labarum business, but you actually meant Santa Maria in Aventino, where the Templars are.  There are a ton of churches named "Santa Maria" something.  I blame the Catholic church for being so crazy about the Virgin Mary.  I don't have time right now but I'll answer your questions by tomorrow night.

[Polycarp]

2nd attempt:

*How are the monks at Santa Maria responding to the change in ownership? And how are the common people responding?

Santa Maria in Aventino was actually already owned by the Templars; they received it within a few years of official Papal recognition in 1129.  It was abandoned in 1144 when the Commune was proclaimed.  The monks fled along with the Pope, and the Master of Rome at the time went off to the Second Crusade which began a year later (in 1145).  Rome had no Master until the end of the crusade in 1149 when a new one was appointed, but he resided in the city of Pavia in Lombardy (as the Master of Rome is also, officially, the head Templar in all of Italy).  The church and its monastery have been largely ignored during that time, though some local non-Templar monks have done a little maintenance over the years.  Rome has hundreds of churches, large and small, and not all are in use.

The Templar Knights are very popular with the people of Europe.  They are the action heroes of the 12th century, virtuous knights of God who fight demonic heathens in faraway lands.  Nobles like them too; they are one of the most popular charities in Europe, a way for a nobleman to support the Crusaders without actually going to the Holy Land himself.  Of course, the Templars here in Rome aren't actually Templar knights (except the Master himself) - the vast majority of men in the order are clergy (monks who have religious duties), lay brothers (non-monks who perform secular duties), or sergeants (monks who can have either military or non-military duties, but aren't knights because they are not of noble blood).

In most ways, a Templar monastery is similar to any other monastery, except a) Templar monasteries are usually very wealthy, b) they are immune to taxation and all local laws whatsoever, and c) they answer to the Pope alone.  They exist to raise money for the Crusades and do this by working donated estates, managing estates of nobles away on crusade, and sometimes investing funds deposited with them for safekeeping by pilgrims travelling to the holy land.

[TheMeanestGuest]

[ic=Letter to Rodolfo]Sindaco,

I can assure you that the Senate of Rome bears your community no malice or ill-will. Gregoriopolis has so far been aided through private fund brought forth by a number of Rome's greatest citizens in order to better create commodity useful to the Gregoripolitans, the Romans, and all of Latium. Perhaps through our own fault, we of Rome are unaware of the resources and trades of Acilia, and therefore have lent no aid to assist in their development. However, let it not be said that the Romans are misers, ignoring fellow Christians in need. Tell me of the need and aspiration of Acilia, and perhaps there is something that can be done.

Consul Roberto Basile[/ic]

[ic=Letter to A Concerned Citizen] I have given ample time for payment to be made good. I am well aware that the passengers were safely delivered to their destination. I trust there will be no further delays in the forwarding of what I am owed.

B.[/ic]

[ic=Letter to Crescenzio Caetani]Signore Caetani,

Your proposal is certainly an intriguing one, and I am inclined to look upon it favorably. The distribution of title and land as you have presented it seems of fair nature to myself and my house, with the caveat that a small sum of silver be included with the dowry for the express purpose of the repair of Torre San Lorenzo - as you have said, it has been uninhabited for some time - so as to ensure defense of sound nature should the prospective couple endeavor to return the land to greater productivity.

I am pleased with the budding relationship between our two families, and God willing, look forward to many years of cooperation and friendship between us, and a long and fruitful marriage between my son and your daughter.

Consul Roberto Basile[/ic]   

[ic=Before the Senate]Senator Manzinni, I fear that you misunderstand. The proposal mandates exemption from veto, not exemption from later consideration and censure. The Consuls of Rome could not rightly act in crisis should their orders be subject to revision and revocation by the Senate. Is it not the purpose of the Consular office to provide strong leadership and immediate authority to the Senate and People of Rome? Furthermore, Senator Manzinni, it strikes me as eminently clear that authority of representation of the Senate in nearly all matters should fall to the office of the Consul of the Exterior, for matters of diplomacy and negotiation are explicitly within his portfolio. The heart of the Church may lie inside our City's walls, but that does not mean we can presume to have any ultimate authority over such a Grand and most Christian institution. Though some among us may yet disagree that the Church should hold authority over any Lord or Commune, it is clear to all of us that none other can claim warrant of matters spiritual.

As to the continued issue of election... I still cannot find myself in any agreement. I am of firm belief that it is the wrong course for Rome, and that our esteemed and learned company as it stands shall in all cases be of the best service to Rome. Do any of you Senators find yourselves unworthy of leading this Great Republic? Do any of you find yourselves insufficiently wise to guide it? Do you doubt the ability of your heirs in delivering unto it a prosperous future? I think that these are the questions that we must consider.[/ic]

[ic=Letter Hugo de Vinti]Consul de Vinti,

I did indeed receive such a letter, in my response to which I defended your actions to the best of my ability. Do not take this for a favour, for I do as I do for the benefit of Rome. I have utterly disavowed the Senate's involvement in your misadventure, and I trust that you will resolve this matter quickly and tactfully.

Consul Roberto Basile[/ic]

[Nomadic]

[ic=Before the Senate]
What then pray tell would you have us do Consul when one of our own dies or (though we hope such a thing does not happen) is found unworthy of their position in the senate through gross misconduct? We are each human and as such susceptible to the weaknesses of the flesh (both physical and otherwise). There must be a codified way to choose a senatory successor when the time inevitably comes to do so. And no I will not accept a hereditary succession. We are a republic senator, not a kingdom. I am with you on the first two matters senator but the matter of dealing with empty senate seats is something we must have codified. If not we risk chaos the moment one of our own is no longer amongst us.
[/ic]

[TheMeanestGuest]

[ic=Before the Senate]On one point will I agree with you, Senator. We are a Republic. Just as are the other great cities of Italy. In this case, I think, we must examine the success of those others. That well-known City of Venice is ruled, I am told, by a council of her most prominent citizens - not unlike to our own Senate. This council is in fact of hereditary nature, and those noble Patricians of Venice pass on their seat to their sons, and so in turn do the sons of their sons come to rule. If such system has brought such profit and position to the City of Venice, should we too not strive to emulate that which has proven itself of such strength? Certainly, we can say, that popular election of Senators has not proven itself lasting or efficacious in past instance for the Eternal City. Stability, Senators, is what Rome requires to grow and continue in her rise to greatness, and the system that I propose shall make sure that we have it.[/ic]

[Nomadic]

[ic=Before the Senate]
We are also not Venice senator nor should we wish to become them. We are Romans and I for one am proud to embrace Roman tradition not toss it out the window in favor of creating a poor mockery of some distant city. Furthermore what will you say to those of us without sons? Hmm? What of those without children at all? How then will you handle it when we die, will our families be stripped of its hereditary rights and cast out like so much fodder while those more fortunate to have said sons hold on? Holding on mind you senator by blind luck without any consideration to ability. No! This senate must be founded on merit, not the fickle ties of blood. Finally I cannot say wholly why the Venetians have enjoyed such wealth save in that as a successful merchantman such wealth comes from the application of skill and capability, not from bloodline. The idea that they got rich just because their sons inherit (for indeed an inheritance in the hands of a fool is quickly spent up) is somewhat silly and as a man who has also had a small taste of such things I would expect you to understand that.
[/ic]

[Polycarp]

[ic=To Consul de Vinti]Consul,

The forces at my disposal pale in comparison to the number of men that Oddone could call upon.  I assure you, however, that I am monitoring this matter and do not intend to allow Oddone Frangipane to subvert Roman interests.

Patrician Giordano Pierleone[/ic]

[ic=To Consul Basile]Consul Basile,

I would be amenable to a payment of [2WP] in silver being added to the terms of the dowry, in the interest of ensuring the torre and its lands are in good condition.  If we are agreed upon the terms, then I would propose a spring marriage in Rome, after the conclusion of Holy Week.

Crescenzio Caetani[/ic]

[TheMeanestGuest]

[ic=Before the Senate]I think it is widely agreed, Senator, that from lineage both graceful and wise spring men of wisdom and grace, is that not so? Indeed, such traits are no doubt borne from parent to child, and so come to bless a new generation. Certainly, it is possible that a man might overcome the situation of his own low birth if blessed by God with talent and ability, or through the ceaseless applications of his own effort and faith, and so too might a man of better birth squander his natural gifts and become an irredeemable wastrel. However, I think these cases are by and large the exception. Even if such facts are unwisely disregarded, men of experience are in addition most capable of imparting that same experience to their own children through example and lecture. In no way do I think that we would be ill-served by the institution of hereditary position in this most esteemed Senatorial body.

You raise fair point as to what should be done with vacant position, and I have myself considered the matter. Should one of our great company depart this Earth to return to God - or should he be impeached by consensus of the Senate through the commission of grave and terrible deed or misconduct  - and should he leave behind no heir suitable to take up his position, then we shall proceed with the matter through adlectio, and the Senate shall determine which of Rome's great citizens shall be elevated to our yet greater company.  

You also speak of Roman tradition, Senator, and I again agree. In tradition and history one may often find lesson worth learning. In Ancient Rome, it is known, that at first it was that each Senator was appointed by Consular decree. Of course, an ill-conceived idea replete with a great host of problems. And I am sure none in this company would suggest the implementation of such system, just as I do not. But over time the ancients learned how better to serve their own people. It eventually arose that the Roman Senate - under the auspices of as Great and Ancient Emperors as Augustus, and Marcus Aurelius, and Constantine - became a body whereby membership was determined chiefly by a man's descent. I believe that the ancients arrived at this conclusion through many centuries of their own experience, and so found it to be of greatest benefit to their continued prosperity. I do not disagree with your assessment, Senator, we are certainly not Venice. But perhaps we should heed those same ancient lessons that they themselves do, and so in turn become ever greater. [/ic]

[ic=Letter to Crescenzio Caetani]Signore Caetani,

I do indeed agree upon these terms, as well as that of location and time. I shall endeavor to pave way for the occasion, and have faith that it shall be one most blessed.

Consul Roberto Basile[/ic]