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X-20/E6 - A new way of d20 (Core Classs Added, Feedback Needed).

Started by Xathan, February 06, 2012, 10:39:02 PM

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sparkletwist

Quote from: SteerpikeBut put those two fighters in combat, and it's easily possible that the weaker fighter will get a lucky roll on an attack while the stronger fighter gets an unlucky roll.  1d8+3 damage later (or whatever), the difference in hp has been more than equalized.
It's equally possible that the weaker fighter will get an unlucky roll on an attack while the stronger fighter gets a lucky roll. 1d8+3 damage later, the difference is even more pronounced.

I understand that there's quite a bit of randomness in the system already, but the randomness is all situational. You can roll well, or roll bad, and the game goes on. The difference between that and rolling for HP is that when you get a bad HP roll your bad roll is permanent. It just makes you worse for no real reason other than some grognard somewhere has done it that way since the 70s.

Quote from: Xathan Back AgainPlus, this factor can be balanced out by increased ability scores, feat selection, etc
Right, but the guy who rolled better can do that too. The other character will still be simply and objectively worse.

Quote from: Xathan Back Againhow often are two people of the exact same class built the exact same way with the only difference being hit points EVER seen in the same party?
My point in making the comparison wasn't to put them in the same party. It was to point out that one character is permanently and objectively worse than the other despite being built identically. This applies to things like the "Same Game Test."

Quote from: Xathan Back AgainI do think the comparison to rolling 3d6 is inaccurate - your ability scores have far more impact on your character than your hit point total.
The impact may be less severe, but that doesn't mean the comparison is inaccurate. In both cases, you're generating character capabilities through random dice rather than something the player has control of.

Superfluous Crow

Okay, in a way the following goes against the very premise of your system, although it goes hand in hand with the intended goal of making end-game play less extreme.
I think you might have been a bit influenced by E6 when you made the decision to use 6 levels and I believe you might do better with more. More levels make for easier extended play, more levels for you to spread the class abilities and features across, and more rewards and advancements to hand out to the players. 
You could do 10 or even 20 levels and just give out small advancements for each, like an increase in BAB or a save bonus or a class ability.

Just a second perspective. Do with it what you will :)
Currently...
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beejazz

Quote from: Superfluous Crow
Okay, in a way the following goes against the very premise of your system, although it goes hand in hand with the intended goal of making end-game play less extreme.
I think you might have been a bit influenced by E6 when you made the decision to use 6 levels and I believe you might do better with more. More levels make for easier extended play, more levels for you to spread the class abilities and features across, and more rewards and advancements to hand out to the players. 
You could do 10 or even 20 levels and just give out small advancements for each, like an increase in BAB or a save bonus or a class ability.

Just a second perspective. Do with it what you will :)

Also chipping in that you could have advancement slow down at higher levels, as I do.

I just did the math and in my game it takes 15 quests to reach 5th level, 55 to reach 10th, 120 to reach 15th, and 210 to reach 20th. A quest averages two sessions to finish, and most gamers seem to play weekly. Sets it at almost 8 years IRL to get to level 20. Longer, given the relatively high deathrate pre-5 and raising dead probably not happening until after level 10.

I'd second that it's not your only option, but if you want that end to math scaling, it could be a good way to go.
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QuoteI don't believe in it anyway.
What?
England.
Just a conspiracy of cartographers, then?

Steerpike

#18
Quote from: sparkletwistI understand that there's quite a bit of randomness in the system already, but the randomness is all situational. You can roll well, or roll bad, and the game goes on. The difference between that and rolling for HP is that when you get a bad HP roll your bad roll is permanent. It just makes you worse for no real reason other than some grognard somewhere has done it that way since the 70s.
It's true that the hp roll follows your character around, but over several levels of progression it should more or less level out, just as over the course of a given combat attack rolls and damage rolls should level out.  It could be that you get some crappy hp rolls, just as it could be that you roll a series of 1s in a combat.  Getting a certain result on your hp roll is the equivalent of getting a "critical hit" on that level.  Over several levels your luck should level out, just as over a combat your rolls should level out.

I guess what it could come down to is this: do you want your character advancement to be neatly linear, perfectly balanced, steadily progressive, precisely sequenced, and evenly measured, or do you want character advancement to have a level of uncertainty, chaos, suspense, and luck?  Are characters entitled to certain benefits every time they level, or does leveling give an opportunity for a degree of advancement?  My feeling is that most of the elements of character creation and progression are already neatly mechanical (skill points, BAB, ability scores (when using point buy), spells, saving throws, etc), so a small degree of chance in the form of an hp roll or a partial hp roll adds a feeling of the organic and uneven, a rough edge that gives characters a curiously "real" or "lived in" feel.  I can totally see the counter-argument, and it's true that sometimes characters will roll poorly.  By similar counter-arguments one might standardize weapon/spell damage (longswords now do 4 damage, greataxes do 6, daggers do 2, fireballs do 3 damage per caster level, or whatever) or initiative rolls (characters just act in order of initiative) or healing (cure light wounds now heals 4+1 per level).  Pathfinder does this already by using a static Combat Maneuver Defense score instead of a roll, which is what 3.5 used.  Static scores are certainly more even than random rolls, perhaps even "fairer."  Personally I like a certain degree of uncertainty - not total randomness, just a hint of chaos.  If you want to keep all randomness out of character creation/progression, there's nothing wrong with that, but I'm not sure that a small degree of randomness in one of many aspects of character advancement is, like, some kind of gaming sin.

Xathan

I feel a lot of the arguments, valid though they may be, are part of the same thought process that lead to 4e being what it is - every character who has the same build should be perfectly identical to every other character of the same build. Extend that logic: at that point, why shouldn't every fighter be 100% equal to each other? And if you're going that route, why not make every single class equal to each other? And if you're going to do that, isn't the best way to do so by making every class work the same? And if you're doing that, why not just play 4e? I know this is an exaggeration, but I think my point is still valid.

However, a good point was made about giving characters/players options, and as such I'm settling on a middle ground: each time a character gains a level, they have the option of either taking the X+dX, or taking X+1/2X, rounded down (So a character who would normally gain 4+d4 or 6hp, their choice.) That should satisfy players such as myself and Steerpike who like the randomness in the rolling hit point system - and still give a viable, balanced option for players like Sparkletwist that prefer predictability. If anything, this gets even closer to my design philosophy of "more options", so I'm very happy with it - thanks for the idea you guys! :)

Quote from: LordVreeg
We could do a whole thread on the effects of chance in the game...I have opposing damage and protection rolls...but both with dividing dice...so probablities 'R' us.

Any how, in My accis game, I have an ability called 'use protection'.  and Armor types have a DR and a 'potential protection'

While this seems like it could be interesting, I'm not familiar with the base system involved, so would like to know if there's an easy way to translate it to d20.

Quote from: Superfluous Crow
Okay, in a way the following goes against the very premise of your system, although it goes hand in hand with the intended goal of making end-game play less extreme.
I think you might have been a bit influenced by E6 when you made the decision to use 6 levels and I believe you might do better with more. More levels make for easier extended play, more levels for you to spread the class abilities and features across, and more rewards and advancements to hand out to the players. 
You could do 10 or even 20 levels and just give out small advancements for each, like an increase in BAB or a save bonus or a class ability.

Just a second perspective. Do with it what you will :)

Funny you should mention it - my original idea was for a 10 level progression with Hit Points, Attack Bonuses, and such increasing at irregular increments. The ways I played with it all ended up feeling somewhat schitzophrenic, and giving out hit dice/attack bonuses/etc at every level put players too far out of the reach of mere mortals. However, if you have some ideas on how to do so in a better way, I'd love to hear it. :)

QuoteAlso chipping in that you could have advancement slow down at higher levels, as I do.

I just did the math and in my game it takes 15 quests to reach 5th level, 55 to reach 10th, 120 to reach 15th, and 210 to reach 20th. A quest averages two sessions to finish, and most gamers seem to play weekly. Sets it at almost 8 years IRL to get to level 20. Longer, given the relatively high deathrate pre-5 and raising dead probably not happening until after level 10.

I'd second that it's not your only option, but if you want that end to math scaling, it could be a good way to go.

I will definitely keep that in mind - however, that rate of progression is too slow for my tastes. It means that for weeks or even years players might be playing the same character, unaltered except for some gear. Doing so is just not an option I'm a fan of.

Again, thank you everyone for the continued feedback. :) I don't mean to come across as "I'm doing it my way" - I need everyone's thoughts on how to best do this system, so I'm very open to suggestions. I just might need some convincing on some things. :P
AnIndex of My Work

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Superfluous Crow

You don't have to play with the regular level progression. Instead of having a Base Attack and regular HP increases, you'd earn a new level and get e.g. +1 to attack, a new attack at a penalty, a fixed (or random) amount of hit points and so on. This would give you much more flexibility in designing your classes as well. You could easily dump an HP increase at one level to give a class another class ability at a comparable level of power. You wouldn't be restricted by those 3 fixed BAB progressions or the number of hit dice types.
Rogues might not get more skill points at each level, but would get skill points more frequently. For a more regular HP progression you might give each character his con modifier as bonus HP at each level, plus whatever hit points he gets from his levels (I think this could be balanced reasonably well although you might get con 18 wizards who are unreasonably buff, but it might make more sense depending on how you personally interpret HP) 
You might even add some modularity: you can choose whether you want the HP, the weapon proficiency or the skill bonus or some fourth hypothetical item.
Currently...
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Reading: the Black Sea: a History by Charles King
Watching: Farscape and Arrested Development

LordVreeg

Quote from: Xathan
Quote from: LordVreeg
We could do a whole thread on the effects of chance in the game...I have opposing damage and protection rolls...but both with dividing dice...so probablities 'R' us.

Any how, in My accis game, I have an ability called 'use protection'.  and Armor types have a DR and a 'potential protection'

While this seems like it could be interesting, I'm not familiar with the base system involved, so would like to know if there's an easy way to translate it to d20

for once, this system is actually d20.  Translation from english to english is hopefully the case here, though perhaps Vreegian D20 is sort of a very regional version with a strange accent.

I like lower HP games, with slightly more damage potential.  This makes the game more dangerous in some circumstances.  What I like to use to mitigate this is giving each armor type a 'potential protection' or 'Potential DR'.  I give each class a progression in an ability called 'use protection' or 'use DR'.  It's a combat ability that simulates combat experience and being able to make the most out of a suit of armor or a shield or helm.  Fighting men get one point every 2 levels, clerics and thieves one point per 3 levels, Magic users one point every 4 levels. 

It was a few different effects.   One effect is that instead of just giving lots of HP to simulate geting better at combat and being able to shrug off attacks, it ties some of this to the use of armor.  this is a simple thing to do, but gets away from the idea of the fighter taking more physical damage than a war horse, etc.
It also means that a rich guy in a suit of platemail can't just waltz into battle with the armor doing the exact same good for him as it would an experienced warrior, since his 'use DR' skill is going to be the base of one.  So while he's as hard to hit as the experienced warrior in plate mail, he can only use 1 of the 4 potential protections of the plate mail, while the level 6 fighter next to him will be able to use all 4, and will last a lot longer in the battle, shrugging off three more points of damage per hit.

don;t know if it is what you want, just letting you know how i did it in my d20.
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Xathan

Quote from: Superfluous Crow
You don't have to play with the regular level progression. Instead of having a Base Attack and regular HP increases, you'd earn a new level and get e.g. +1 to attack, a new attack at a penalty, a fixed (or random) amount of hit points and so on. This would give you much more flexibility in designing your classes as well. You could easily dump an HP increase at one level to give a class another class ability at a comparable level of power. You wouldn't be restricted by those 3 fixed BAB progressions or the number of hit dice types.
Rogues might not get more skill points at each level, but would get skill points more frequently. For a more regular HP progression you might give each character his con modifier as bonus HP at each level, plus whatever hit points he gets from his levels (I think this could be balanced reasonably well although you might get con 18 wizards who are unreasonably buff, but it might make more sense depending on how you personally interpret HP) 
You might even add some modularity: you can choose whether you want the HP, the weapon proficiency or the skill bonus or some fourth hypothetical item.

...oh god, you're tempting me so badly to do it this way, because it has so much potential for future developments of awesome.

I'm going to say that it'll probably be best for me to stick for to the initial concept for the first 6 levels, since that also requires the least work for me...but what you've said sounds awesome to an absurd degree, and I'm going to let it simmer for a little while and perhaps save that for either post-6 progression instead of what I originally had or see if I can do something else with it. I'd appreciate your continued thoughts on this, because I want to keep the mental juices flowing on that one.
Quote from: LordVreeg
Quote from: Xathan
Quote from: LordVreeg
We could do a whole thread on the effects of chance in the game...I have opposing damage and protection rolls...but both with dividing dice...so probablities 'R' us.

Any how, in My accis game, I have an ability called 'use protection'.  and Armor types have a DR and a 'potential protection'

While this seems like it could be interesting, I'm not familiar with the base system involved, so would like to know if there's an easy way to translate it to d20

for once, this system is actually d20.  Translation from english to english is hopefully the case here, though perhaps Vreegian D20 is sort of a very regional version with a strange accent.

Hehehe, I'm familiar with the phenomena - and am guilty of it myself in a few other subjects. Sorry for the confusion - I admit when I started hitting words that didn't make sense to me I thought it was a guildschool system.

QuoteI like lower HP games, with slightly more damage potential.  This makes the game more dangerous in some circumstances.  What I like to use to mitigate this is giving each armor type a 'potential protection' or 'Potential DR'.  I give each class a progression in an ability called 'use protection' or 'use DR'.  It's a combat ability that simulates combat experience and being able to make the most out of a suit of armor or a shield or helm.  Fighting men get one point every 2 levels, clerics and thieves one point per 3 levels, Magic users one point every 4 levels. 

It was a few different effects.   One effect is that instead of just giving lots of HP to simulate geting better at combat and being able to shrug off attacks, it ties some of this to the use of armor.  this is a simple thing to do, but gets away from the idea of the fighter taking more physical damage than a war horse, etc.
It also means that a rich guy in a suit of platemail can't just waltz into battle with the armor doing the exact same good for him as it would an experienced warrior, since his 'use DR' skill is going to be the base of one.  So while he's as hard to hit as the experienced warrior in plate mail, he can only use 1 of the 4 potential protections of the plate mail, while the level 6 fighter next to him will be able to use all 4, and will last a lot longer in the battle, shrugging off three more points of damage per hit.

don;t know if it is what you want, just letting you know how i did it in my d20.

Okay, I'm still translating from a regional dialect I'm unfamiliar with, but now that I know it's a dialect and not a seperate language I think I get it. :P

To make sure I understand: Every armor provides the same bonus to AC (difficulty to hit) to every class, but how much damage it mitigate is class/skill dependent?
AnIndex of My Work

Quote from: Sparkletwist
It's llitul and the brain, llitul and the brain, one is a genius and the other's insane
Proud Receiver of a Golden Dorito
[spoiler=SRD AND OGC AND LEGAL JUNK]UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTED IN THE POST, NONE OF THE ABOVE CONTENT IS CONSIDERED OGC, EXCEPT FOR MATERIALS ALREADY MADE OGC BY PRIOR PUBLISHERS
Appendix I: Open Game License Version 1.0a
The following text is the property of Wizards of the Coast, Inc. and is Copyright 2000 Wizards of the Coast, Inc ("Wizards"). All Rights Reserved.
1. Definitions: (a)"Contributors" means the copyright and/or trademark owners who have contributed Open Game Content; (b)"Derivative Material" means copyrighted material including derivative works and translations (including into other computer languages), potation, modification, correction, addition, extension, upgrade, improvement, compilation, abridgment or other form in which an existing work may be recast, transformed or adapted; (c) "Distribute" means to reproduce, license, rent, lease, sell, broadcast, publicly display, transmit or otherwise distribute; (d)"Open Game Content" means the game mechanic and includes the methods, procedures, processes and routines to the extent such content does not embody the Product Identity and is an enhancement over the prior art and any additional content clearly identified as Open Game Content by the Contributor, and means any work covered by this License, including translations and derivative works under copyright law, but specifically excludes Product Identity. (e) "Product Identity" means product and product line names, logos and identifying marks including trade dress; artifacts; creatures characters; stories, storylines, plots, thematic elements, dialogue, incidents, language, artwork, symbols, designs, depictions, likenesses, formats, poses, concepts, themes and graphic, photographic and other visual or audio representations; names and descriptions of characters, spells, enchantments, personalities, teams, personas, likenesses and special abilities; places, locations, environments, creatures, equipment, magical or supernatural abilities or effects, logos, symbols, or graphic designs; and any other trademark or registered trademark clearly identified as Product identity by the owner of the Product Identity, and which specifically excludes the Open Game Content; (f) "Trademark" means the logos, names, mark, sign, motto, designs that are used by a Contributor to identify itself or its products or the associated products contributed to the Open Game License by the Contributor (g) "Use", "Used" or "Using" means to use, Distribute, copy, edit, format, modify, translate and otherwise create Derivative Material of Open Game Content. (h) "You" or "Your" means the licensee in terms of this agreement.
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Open Game License v 1.0 Copyright 2000, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
Fudge 10th Anniversary Edition Copyright 2005, Grey Ghost Press, Inc.; Authors Steffan O'Sullivan and Ann Dupuis, with additional material by Jonathan Benn, Peter Bonney, Deird'Re Brooks, Reimer Behrends, Don Bisdorf, Carl Cravens, Shawn Garbett, Steven Hammond, Ed Heil, Bernard Hsiung, J.M. "Thijs" Krijger, Sedge Lewis, Shawn Lockard, Gordon McCormick, Kent Matthewson, Peter Mikelsons, Robb Neumann, Anthony Roberson, Andy Skinner, William Stoddard, Stephan Szabo, John Ughrin, Alex Weldon, Duke York, Dmitri Zagidulin
System Reference Document Copyright 2000-2003, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Authors Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, Skip Williams, Rich Baker, Andy Collins, David Noonan, Rich Redman, Bruce R. Cordell, based on original material by E. Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson.

Modern System Reference Doument Copyright 2002, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Authors Bill Slavicsek, Jeff Grubb, Rich Redman, Charles Ryan, based on material by Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, Richard Baker, Peter Adkison, Bruce R. Cordell, John Tynes, Andy Collins, and JD Walker.

Unearthed Arcana Copyright 2004, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Andy Collins, Jesse Decker, David Noonan, Rich Redman.

Mutants and Masterminds Second Edition Copyright 2005, Green Ronin Publishing; Steve Kenson
Fate (Fantastic Adventures in Tabletop Entertainment) Copyright 2003 by Evil Hat Productions, LLC. Authors Robert Donoghue and Fred Hicks.
Spirit of the Century Copyright 2006 by Evil Hat Productions, LLC. Authors Robert Donoghue, Fred Hicks, and Leonard Balsera
Xathan's forum posts at http://www.thecbg.org Copyright 2006-2011, J.A. Raizman.
[/spoiler]

LordVreeg

#23
Quote from: XathanTo make sure I understand: Every armor provides the same bonus to AC (difficulty to hit) to every class, but how much damage it mitigate is class/skill dependent?

Close.  Every armor provides the same bonus to AC and the same POTENTIAL DR.  The ability to use DR is class/level dependent.  Like Hit points, or spells for a caster.  But it cannot exceed the 'Potential DR' of the armor worn. Fighters gain one more 'Use DR' at levels 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 etc, Clerics and thieves at levels 3, 6, 9, magic users at levels 4, 8, etc.

remember, this means that if our fighter is not wearing any armor, he has no DR, no matter how good his 'Use DR' ability is.  It needs both. 



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Old, evil, twisted, damaged, and afflicted.  Orbis non sufficit.Thread Murderer Extraordinaire, and supposedly pragmatic...\"That is my interpretation. That the same rules designed to reduce the role of the GM and to empower the player also destroyed the autonomy to create a consistent setting. And more importantly, these rules reduce the Roleplaying component of what is supposed to be a \'Fantasy Roleplaying game\' to something else\"-Vreeg

Xathan

Quote from: LordVreeg
Quote from: XathanTo make sure I understand: Every armor provides the same bonus to AC (difficulty to hit) to every class, but how much damage it mitigate is class/skill dependent?

Close.  Every armor provides the same bonus to AC and the same POTENTIAL DR.  The ability to use DR is class/level dependent.  Like Hit points, or spells for a caster.  But it cannot exceed the 'Potential DR' of the armor worn. Fighters gain one more 'Use DR' at levels 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 etc, Clerics and thieves at levels 3, 6, 9, magic users at levels 4, 8, etc.

remember, this means that if our fighter is not wearing any armor, he has no DR, no matter how good his 'Use DR' ability is.  It needs both. 

Oh, okay, I get it! It seems like a cool way of doing it - the problem is, my goal here is to completely remove difficulty to hit from armor and make armor totally about damage mitigation, so this system just doesn't fit my design purposes. I do like the idea of "use DR", though - I'm getting some ideas on how to implement it best in the system I'm working out. :)
AnIndex of My Work

Quote from: Sparkletwist
It's llitul and the brain, llitul and the brain, one is a genius and the other's insane
Proud Receiver of a Golden Dorito
[spoiler=SRD AND OGC AND LEGAL JUNK]UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTED IN THE POST, NONE OF THE ABOVE CONTENT IS CONSIDERED OGC, EXCEPT FOR MATERIALS ALREADY MADE OGC BY PRIOR PUBLISHERS
Appendix I: Open Game License Version 1.0a
The following text is the property of Wizards of the Coast, Inc. and is Copyright 2000 Wizards of the Coast, Inc ("Wizards"). All Rights Reserved.
1. Definitions: (a)"Contributors" means the copyright and/or trademark owners who have contributed Open Game Content; (b)"Derivative Material" means copyrighted material including derivative works and translations (including into other computer languages), potation, modification, correction, addition, extension, upgrade, improvement, compilation, abridgment or other form in which an existing work may be recast, transformed or adapted; (c) "Distribute" means to reproduce, license, rent, lease, sell, broadcast, publicly display, transmit or otherwise distribute; (d)"Open Game Content" means the game mechanic and includes the methods, procedures, processes and routines to the extent such content does not embody the Product Identity and is an enhancement over the prior art and any additional content clearly identified as Open Game Content by the Contributor, and means any work covered by this License, including translations and derivative works under copyright law, but specifically excludes Product Identity. (e) "Product Identity" means product and product line names, logos and identifying marks including trade dress; artifacts; creatures characters; stories, storylines, plots, thematic elements, dialogue, incidents, language, artwork, symbols, designs, depictions, likenesses, formats, poses, concepts, themes and graphic, photographic and other visual or audio representations; names and descriptions of characters, spells, enchantments, personalities, teams, personas, likenesses and special abilities; places, locations, environments, creatures, equipment, magical or supernatural abilities or effects, logos, symbols, or graphic designs; and any other trademark or registered trademark clearly identified as Product identity by the owner of the Product Identity, and which specifically excludes the Open Game Content; (f) "Trademark" means the logos, names, mark, sign, motto, designs that are used by a Contributor to identify itself or its products or the associated products contributed to the Open Game License by the Contributor (g) "Use", "Used" or "Using" means to use, Distribute, copy, edit, format, modify, translate and otherwise create Derivative Material of Open Game Content. (h) "You" or "Your" means the licensee in terms of this agreement.
2. The License: This License applies to any Open Game Content that contains a notice indicating that the Open Game Content may only be Used under and in terms of this License. You must affix such a notice to any Open Game Content that you Use. No terms may be added to or subtracted from this License except as described by the License itself. No other terms or conditions may be applied to any Open Game Content distributed using this License.
3. Offer and Acceptance: By Using the Open Game Content You indicate Your acceptance of the terms of this License.
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7. Use of Product Identity: You agree not to Use any Product Identity, including as an indication as to compatibility, except as expressly licensed in another, independent Agreement with the owner of each element of that Product Identity. You agree not to indicate compatibility or co-adaptability with any Trademark or Registered Trademark in conjunction with a work containing Open Game Content except as expressly licensed in another, independent Agreement with the owner of such Trademark or Registered Trademark. The use of any Product Identity in Open Game Content does not constitute a challenge to the ownership of that Product Identity. The owner of any Product Identity used in Open Game Content shall retain all rights, title and interest in and to that Product Identity.
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15 COPYRIGHT NOTICE
Open Game License v 1.0 Copyright 2000, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
Fudge 10th Anniversary Edition Copyright 2005, Grey Ghost Press, Inc.; Authors Steffan O'Sullivan and Ann Dupuis, with additional material by Jonathan Benn, Peter Bonney, Deird'Re Brooks, Reimer Behrends, Don Bisdorf, Carl Cravens, Shawn Garbett, Steven Hammond, Ed Heil, Bernard Hsiung, J.M. "Thijs" Krijger, Sedge Lewis, Shawn Lockard, Gordon McCormick, Kent Matthewson, Peter Mikelsons, Robb Neumann, Anthony Roberson, Andy Skinner, William Stoddard, Stephan Szabo, John Ughrin, Alex Weldon, Duke York, Dmitri Zagidulin
System Reference Document Copyright 2000-2003, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Authors Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, Skip Williams, Rich Baker, Andy Collins, David Noonan, Rich Redman, Bruce R. Cordell, based on original material by E. Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson.

Modern System Reference Doument Copyright 2002, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Authors Bill Slavicsek, Jeff Grubb, Rich Redman, Charles Ryan, based on material by Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, Richard Baker, Peter Adkison, Bruce R. Cordell, John Tynes, Andy Collins, and JD Walker.

Unearthed Arcana Copyright 2004, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Andy Collins, Jesse Decker, David Noonan, Rich Redman.

Mutants and Masterminds Second Edition Copyright 2005, Green Ronin Publishing; Steve Kenson
Fate (Fantastic Adventures in Tabletop Entertainment) Copyright 2003 by Evil Hat Productions, LLC. Authors Robert Donoghue and Fred Hicks.
Spirit of the Century Copyright 2006 by Evil Hat Productions, LLC. Authors Robert Donoghue, Fred Hicks, and Leonard Balsera
Xathan's forum posts at http://www.thecbg.org Copyright 2006-2011, J.A. Raizman.
[/spoiler]

sparkletwist

Quote from: Steerpikedo you want your character advancement to be neatly linear, perfectly balanced, steadily progressive, precisely sequenced, and evenly measured
Actually, yes. I do. :D

I could rant more about this but it looks like Xathan's already decided to just make it an option.
So all I'll say is a small nitpick-- that mean value of 4+d4 is 6.5, not 6.

Xathan

Quote from: sparkletwist
Quote from: Steerpikedo you want your character advancement to be neatly linear, perfectly balanced, steadily progressive, precisely sequenced, and evenly measured
Actually, yes. I do. :D

I could rant more about this but it looks like Xathan's already decided to just make it an option.
So all I'll say is a small nitpick-- that mean value of 4+d4 is 6.5, not 6.

I'm figuring making it an option gives it a broad range of appeal without being unbalancing.

And yeah, 4+d4 is the hardest since the die involved is even numbered (well, so will 6+d6), but I wanted to offer some reward for players taking the riskier option of rolling fractional hit points seem like they'd be a headache - and if it is 7 for the average of 4+d4, then there's very little reason to risk rolling.
AnIndex of My Work

Quote from: Sparkletwist
It's llitul and the brain, llitul and the brain, one is a genius and the other's insane
Proud Receiver of a Golden Dorito
[spoiler=SRD AND OGC AND LEGAL JUNK]UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTED IN THE POST, NONE OF THE ABOVE CONTENT IS CONSIDERED OGC, EXCEPT FOR MATERIALS ALREADY MADE OGC BY PRIOR PUBLISHERS
Appendix I: Open Game License Version 1.0a
The following text is the property of Wizards of the Coast, Inc. and is Copyright 2000 Wizards of the Coast, Inc ("Wizards"). All Rights Reserved.
1. Definitions: (a)"Contributors" means the copyright and/or trademark owners who have contributed Open Game Content; (b)"Derivative Material" means copyrighted material including derivative works and translations (including into other computer languages), potation, modification, correction, addition, extension, upgrade, improvement, compilation, abridgment or other form in which an existing work may be recast, transformed or adapted; (c) "Distribute" means to reproduce, license, rent, lease, sell, broadcast, publicly display, transmit or otherwise distribute; (d)"Open Game Content" means the game mechanic and includes the methods, procedures, processes and routines to the extent such content does not embody the Product Identity and is an enhancement over the prior art and any additional content clearly identified as Open Game Content by the Contributor, and means any work covered by this License, including translations and derivative works under copyright law, but specifically excludes Product Identity. (e) "Product Identity" means product and product line names, logos and identifying marks including trade dress; artifacts; creatures characters; stories, storylines, plots, thematic elements, dialogue, incidents, language, artwork, symbols, designs, depictions, likenesses, formats, poses, concepts, themes and graphic, photographic and other visual or audio representations; names and descriptions of characters, spells, enchantments, personalities, teams, personas, likenesses and special abilities; places, locations, environments, creatures, equipment, magical or supernatural abilities or effects, logos, symbols, or graphic designs; and any other trademark or registered trademark clearly identified as Product identity by the owner of the Product Identity, and which specifically excludes the Open Game Content; (f) "Trademark" means the logos, names, mark, sign, motto, designs that are used by a Contributor to identify itself or its products or the associated products contributed to the Open Game License by the Contributor (g) "Use", "Used" or "Using" means to use, Distribute, copy, edit, format, modify, translate and otherwise create Derivative Material of Open Game Content. (h) "You" or "Your" means the licensee in terms of this agreement.
2. The License: This License applies to any Open Game Content that contains a notice indicating that the Open Game Content may only be Used under and in terms of this License. You must affix such a notice to any Open Game Content that you Use. No terms may be added to or subtracted from this License except as described by the License itself. No other terms or conditions may be applied to any Open Game Content distributed using this License.
3. Offer and Acceptance: By Using the Open Game Content You indicate Your acceptance of the terms of this License.
4. Grant and Consideration: In consideration for agreeing to use this License, the Contributors grant You a perpetual, worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive license with the exact terms of this License to Use, the Open Game Content.
5. Representation of Authority to Contribute: If You are contributing original material as Open Game Content, You represent that Your Contributions are Your original creation and/or You have sufficient rights to grant the rights conveyed by this License.
6. Notice of License Copyright: You must update the COPYRIGHT NOTICE portion of this License to include the exact text of the COPYRIGHT NOTICE of any Open Game Content You are copying, modifying or distributing, and You must add the title, the copyright date, and the copyright holder's name to the COPYRIGHT NOTICE of any original Open Game Content you Distribute.
7. Use of Product Identity: You agree not to Use any Product Identity, including as an indication as to compatibility, except as expressly licensed in another, independent Agreement with the owner of each element of that Product Identity. You agree not to indicate compatibility or co-adaptability with any Trademark or Registered Trademark in conjunction with a work containing Open Game Content except as expressly licensed in another, independent Agreement with the owner of such Trademark or Registered Trademark. The use of any Product Identity in Open Game Content does not constitute a challenge to the ownership of that Product Identity. The owner of any Product Identity used in Open Game Content shall retain all rights, title and interest in and to that Product Identity.
8. Identification: If you distribute Open Game Content You must clearly indicate which portions of the work that you are distributing are Open Game Content.
9. Updating the License: Wizards or its designated Agents may publish updated versions of this License. You may use any authorized version of this License to copy, modify and distribute any Open Game Content originally distributed under any version of this License.
10 Copy of this License: You MUST include a copy of this License with every copy of the Open Game Content You Distribute.
11. Use of Contributor Credits: You may not market or advertise the Open Game Content using the name of any Contributor unless You have written permission from the Contributor to do so.
12 Inability to Comply: If it is impossible for You to comply with any of the terms of this License with respect to some or all of the Open Game Content due to statute, judicial order, or governmental regulation then You may not Use any Open Game Material so affected.
13 Termination: This License will terminate automatically if You fail to comply with all terms herein and fail to cure such breach within 30 days of becoming aware of the breach. All sublicenses shall survive the termination of this License.
14 Reformation: If any provision of this License is held to be unenforceable, such provision shall be reformed only to the extent necessary to make it enforceable.
15 COPYRIGHT NOTICE
Open Game License v 1.0 Copyright 2000, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
Fudge 10th Anniversary Edition Copyright 2005, Grey Ghost Press, Inc.; Authors Steffan O'Sullivan and Ann Dupuis, with additional material by Jonathan Benn, Peter Bonney, Deird'Re Brooks, Reimer Behrends, Don Bisdorf, Carl Cravens, Shawn Garbett, Steven Hammond, Ed Heil, Bernard Hsiung, J.M. "Thijs" Krijger, Sedge Lewis, Shawn Lockard, Gordon McCormick, Kent Matthewson, Peter Mikelsons, Robb Neumann, Anthony Roberson, Andy Skinner, William Stoddard, Stephan Szabo, John Ughrin, Alex Weldon, Duke York, Dmitri Zagidulin
System Reference Document Copyright 2000-2003, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Authors Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, Skip Williams, Rich Baker, Andy Collins, David Noonan, Rich Redman, Bruce R. Cordell, based on original material by E. Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson.

Modern System Reference Doument Copyright 2002, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Authors Bill Slavicsek, Jeff Grubb, Rich Redman, Charles Ryan, based on material by Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, Richard Baker, Peter Adkison, Bruce R. Cordell, John Tynes, Andy Collins, and JD Walker.

Unearthed Arcana Copyright 2004, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Andy Collins, Jesse Decker, David Noonan, Rich Redman.

Mutants and Masterminds Second Edition Copyright 2005, Green Ronin Publishing; Steve Kenson
Fate (Fantastic Adventures in Tabletop Entertainment) Copyright 2003 by Evil Hat Productions, LLC. Authors Robert Donoghue and Fred Hicks.
Spirit of the Century Copyright 2006 by Evil Hat Productions, LLC. Authors Robert Donoghue, Fred Hicks, and Leonard Balsera
Xathan's forum posts at http://www.thecbg.org Copyright 2006-2011, J.A. Raizman.
[/spoiler]

Matt Larkin (author)

Some interesting ideas going by. Thanks for the link beejaaz. Also an interesting read, though I don't buy everything in it.

Because it's obligatory on this kind of thread, I have to mention...at what point have you changed so many rules you're calling something D&D (or d20 or whatever) for the sake of calling it D&D. Because at that point you may unconsciously be including things your system may not need. Then, perhaps, you are better off making a brand new system with no emotional baggage, tailored to your needs.
Latest Release: Echoes of Angels

NEW site mattlarkin.net - author of the Skyfall Era and Relics of Requiem Books
incandescentphoenix.com - publishing, editing, web design

Xathan

QuoteBecause it's obligatory on this kind of thread, I have to mention...at what point have you changed so many rules you're calling something D&D (or d20 or whatever) for the sake of calling it D&D. Because at that point you may unconsciously be including things your system may not need. Then, perhaps, you are better off making a brand new system with no emotional baggage, tailored to your needs.

I'm calling it d20 primarily because that's the "root" system - you roll a d20, add a number, and are good to go. And I don't want to start 100% from scratch - I know myself, if I go that route I'm going to end up not coming anywhere close to finishing this project.
AnIndex of My Work

Quote from: Sparkletwist
It's llitul and the brain, llitul and the brain, one is a genius and the other's insane
Proud Receiver of a Golden Dorito
[spoiler=SRD AND OGC AND LEGAL JUNK]UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTED IN THE POST, NONE OF THE ABOVE CONTENT IS CONSIDERED OGC, EXCEPT FOR MATERIALS ALREADY MADE OGC BY PRIOR PUBLISHERS
Appendix I: Open Game License Version 1.0a
The following text is the property of Wizards of the Coast, Inc. and is Copyright 2000 Wizards of the Coast, Inc ("Wizards"). All Rights Reserved.
1. Definitions: (a)"Contributors" means the copyright and/or trademark owners who have contributed Open Game Content; (b)"Derivative Material" means copyrighted material including derivative works and translations (including into other computer languages), potation, modification, correction, addition, extension, upgrade, improvement, compilation, abridgment or other form in which an existing work may be recast, transformed or adapted; (c) "Distribute" means to reproduce, license, rent, lease, sell, broadcast, publicly display, transmit or otherwise distribute; (d)"Open Game Content" means the game mechanic and includes the methods, procedures, processes and routines to the extent such content does not embody the Product Identity and is an enhancement over the prior art and any additional content clearly identified as Open Game Content by the Contributor, and means any work covered by this License, including translations and derivative works under copyright law, but specifically excludes Product Identity. (e) "Product Identity" means product and product line names, logos and identifying marks including trade dress; artifacts; creatures characters; stories, storylines, plots, thematic elements, dialogue, incidents, language, artwork, symbols, designs, depictions, likenesses, formats, poses, concepts, themes and graphic, photographic and other visual or audio representations; names and descriptions of characters, spells, enchantments, personalities, teams, personas, likenesses and special abilities; places, locations, environments, creatures, equipment, magical or supernatural abilities or effects, logos, symbols, or graphic designs; and any other trademark or registered trademark clearly identified as Product identity by the owner of the Product Identity, and which specifically excludes the Open Game Content; (f) "Trademark" means the logos, names, mark, sign, motto, designs that are used by a Contributor to identify itself or its products or the associated products contributed to the Open Game License by the Contributor (g) "Use", "Used" or "Using" means to use, Distribute, copy, edit, format, modify, translate and otherwise create Derivative Material of Open Game Content. (h) "You" or "Your" means the licensee in terms of this agreement.
2. The License: This License applies to any Open Game Content that contains a notice indicating that the Open Game Content may only be Used under and in terms of this License. You must affix such a notice to any Open Game Content that you Use. No terms may be added to or subtracted from this License except as described by the License itself. No other terms or conditions may be applied to any Open Game Content distributed using this License.
3. Offer and Acceptance: By Using the Open Game Content You indicate Your acceptance of the terms of this License.
4. Grant and Consideration: In consideration for agreeing to use this License, the Contributors grant You a perpetual, worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive license with the exact terms of this License to Use, the Open Game Content.
5. Representation of Authority to Contribute: If You are contributing original material as Open Game Content, You represent that Your Contributions are Your original creation and/or You have sufficient rights to grant the rights conveyed by this License.
6. Notice of License Copyright: You must update the COPYRIGHT NOTICE portion of this License to include the exact text of the COPYRIGHT NOTICE of any Open Game Content You are copying, modifying or distributing, and You must add the title, the copyright date, and the copyright holder's name to the COPYRIGHT NOTICE of any original Open Game Content you Distribute.
7. Use of Product Identity: You agree not to Use any Product Identity, including as an indication as to compatibility, except as expressly licensed in another, independent Agreement with the owner of each element of that Product Identity. You agree not to indicate compatibility or co-adaptability with any Trademark or Registered Trademark in conjunction with a work containing Open Game Content except as expressly licensed in another, independent Agreement with the owner of such Trademark or Registered Trademark. The use of any Product Identity in Open Game Content does not constitute a challenge to the ownership of that Product Identity. The owner of any Product Identity used in Open Game Content shall retain all rights, title and interest in and to that Product Identity.
8. Identification: If you distribute Open Game Content You must clearly indicate which portions of the work that you are distributing are Open Game Content.
9. Updating the License: Wizards or its designated Agents may publish updated versions of this License. You may use any authorized version of this License to copy, modify and distribute any Open Game Content originally distributed under any version of this License.
10 Copy of this License: You MUST include a copy of this License with every copy of the Open Game Content You Distribute.
11. Use of Contributor Credits: You may not market or advertise the Open Game Content using the name of any Contributor unless You have written permission from the Contributor to do so.
12 Inability to Comply: If it is impossible for You to comply with any of the terms of this License with respect to some or all of the Open Game Content due to statute, judicial order, or governmental regulation then You may not Use any Open Game Material so affected.
13 Termination: This License will terminate automatically if You fail to comply with all terms herein and fail to cure such breach within 30 days of becoming aware of the breach. All sublicenses shall survive the termination of this License.
14 Reformation: If any provision of this License is held to be unenforceable, such provision shall be reformed only to the extent necessary to make it enforceable.
15 COPYRIGHT NOTICE
Open Game License v 1.0 Copyright 2000, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
Fudge 10th Anniversary Edition Copyright 2005, Grey Ghost Press, Inc.; Authors Steffan O'Sullivan and Ann Dupuis, with additional material by Jonathan Benn, Peter Bonney, Deird'Re Brooks, Reimer Behrends, Don Bisdorf, Carl Cravens, Shawn Garbett, Steven Hammond, Ed Heil, Bernard Hsiung, J.M. "Thijs" Krijger, Sedge Lewis, Shawn Lockard, Gordon McCormick, Kent Matthewson, Peter Mikelsons, Robb Neumann, Anthony Roberson, Andy Skinner, William Stoddard, Stephan Szabo, John Ughrin, Alex Weldon, Duke York, Dmitri Zagidulin
System Reference Document Copyright 2000-2003, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Authors Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, Skip Williams, Rich Baker, Andy Collins, David Noonan, Rich Redman, Bruce R. Cordell, based on original material by E. Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson.

Modern System Reference Doument Copyright 2002, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Authors Bill Slavicsek, Jeff Grubb, Rich Redman, Charles Ryan, based on material by Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, Richard Baker, Peter Adkison, Bruce R. Cordell, John Tynes, Andy Collins, and JD Walker.

Unearthed Arcana Copyright 2004, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Andy Collins, Jesse Decker, David Noonan, Rich Redman.

Mutants and Masterminds Second Edition Copyright 2005, Green Ronin Publishing; Steve Kenson
Fate (Fantastic Adventures in Tabletop Entertainment) Copyright 2003 by Evil Hat Productions, LLC. Authors Robert Donoghue and Fred Hicks.
Spirit of the Century Copyright 2006 by Evil Hat Productions, LLC. Authors Robert Donoghue, Fred Hicks, and Leonard Balsera
Xathan's forum posts at http://www.thecbg.org Copyright 2006-2011, J.A. Raizman.
[/spoiler]

Matt Larkin (author)

Quote from: Xathan Back Again
QuoteBecause it's obligatory on this kind of thread, I have to mention...at what point have you changed so many rules you're calling something D&D (or d20 or whatever) for the sake of calling it D&D. Because at that point you may unconsciously be including things your system may not need. Then, perhaps, you are better off making a brand new system with no emotional baggage, tailored to your needs.

I'm calling it d20 primarily because that's the "root" system - you roll a d20, add a number, and are good to go. And I don't want to start 100% from scratch - I know myself, if I go that route I'm going to end up not coming anywhere close to finishing this project.

As long as you've examined your reasons for doing it, you're probably in good shape.
Latest Release: Echoes of Angels

NEW site mattlarkin.net - author of the Skyfall Era and Relics of Requiem Books
incandescentphoenix.com - publishing, editing, web design