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X-20/E6 - A new way of d20 (Core Classs Added, Feedback Needed).

Started by Xathan, February 06, 2012, 10:39:02 PM

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Xathan

Quote from: Superfluous Crow
If part of your motivation for doing this is that a level 6 character is of comparable power to a well-trained real-world human individual, I wanted to note that allowing more class abilities per character post-6 is definitely going to make the game feel more like classic high-level D&D gaming with crazy all-powerful gishs.

I guess my motivation has slightly shifted - a level 6 character should be of comparable power to a well-trained action movie human. Take, for example, the non-hobbits in LOTR as of Fellowship. They would all be level 6, perhaps with a bit of post six advancement, but lacking in magic items for the most part. A relatively small groups of Orcs (I believe it was maybe 20-25) was able to pose a credible threat to them, even killing one of the party members and requiring some of the party to flee for safety, a cave troll damn with some goblin backing near killed some of them, larger groups of goblins/orcs/humans required the party to outright flee to avoid death, and a powerful demon required incredibly clever use of terrain after fleeing for awhile to defeat and STILL required the party sorcerer to sacrifice himself to defeat. (I'm partially discounting the hobbits as part of the party - they were level 2 or 3 NPCs that the level 6's had an escort quest to complete with them - a quest, I might mention, that they failed). They were still able to do a variety of awesome things, but if they had instead been level 12 DnD characters (a level most people agree would be needed for what they could do)

That being said, none of them were true gishes - Aragon was a single class ranger (though maybe had a level of fighter or two), Borimir was a single class fighter, Legollas was likely a multiclass fighter/rogue or ranger/rogue, Gandalf was a single class sorcerer, Gimli was a single class Fighter or perhaps had a level of Barbarian (I know I don't have rangers or barbarians statted yet, but I'll get to them.), so your point about the crazy DnD gishes is not lost on me at all - I need to find a way to handle post 6 advancement that doesn't allow for those gishes. I still like the idea of expanding versatility without outright power (in terms of ability to take damage or deal it to much more), but the more I think about it, the harder it becomes to believe that would actually work.

[ooc]Wanted to get that response out before I want to class - will respond to rest of your post and Bejazz's post when I get back.[/ooc]
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Proud Receiver of a Golden Dorito
[spoiler=SRD AND OGC AND LEGAL JUNK]UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTED IN THE POST, NONE OF THE ABOVE CONTENT IS CONSIDERED OGC, EXCEPT FOR MATERIALS ALREADY MADE OGC BY PRIOR PUBLISHERS
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System Reference Document Copyright 2000-2003, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Authors Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, Skip Williams, Rich Baker, Andy Collins, David Noonan, Rich Redman, Bruce R. Cordell, based on original material by E. Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson.

Modern System Reference Doument Copyright 2002, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Authors Bill Slavicsek, Jeff Grubb, Rich Redman, Charles Ryan, based on material by Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, Richard Baker, Peter Adkison, Bruce R. Cordell, John Tynes, Andy Collins, and JD Walker.

Unearthed Arcana Copyright 2004, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Andy Collins, Jesse Decker, David Noonan, Rich Redman.

Mutants and Masterminds Second Edition Copyright 2005, Green Ronin Publishing; Steve Kenson
Fate (Fantastic Adventures in Tabletop Entertainment) Copyright 2003 by Evil Hat Productions, LLC. Authors Robert Donoghue and Fred Hicks.
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[/spoiler]

Xathan

#76
[ooc]Rest of response now![/ooc]
Quote from: Superfluous Crow
It would also remove the main benefit of a class-based system: character role distinction. As the game progressed, all the characters would become more and more alike.
In fact, I find that with E6 especially, multiclassing is more intriguing because you have so few levels to play around with. In Steer's Fimbulwinter (where we are capping the level at 6) I'm in a deep dilemma as to how to split the 6 levels of my multiclass character. The choice becomes much more significant than in traditional D20. You should capitalize on this, not dilute it.

Knowing I only had 6 levels to work with in Fimbulvinter, I was careful to choose a class that I would (or hoped I would) enjoy playing for 6 solid levels without multiclassing, and was kind of assuming that every other character would be making the same decision. When I saw your character was a multiclass I was surprised and intrigued. But, since my assumption has been that with only 6 levels of play, players would choose to stick with their class for all 6 levels, I've been building X20 (to a degree) around this very premise.

In the current build, single classing is very strongly rewarded - a multiclass character misses out of the most powerful ability of either of their classes, the capstone. Knowing that you faced a dilemma that I hadn't even considered, I'd like to hear your thought process on your choices and considerations as well as ways to best capitalize on that - right now, the system inherently is punitive to multiclass characters (to a degree, though they do gain some flexibility to make up for it), and I'm at a loss for ideas at how to make that choice as viable as single classing. (There also is the issue of how to handle iterative attacks for multiclass characters, but that's a whole 'nother issue I'll probably hold off on until I have a bigger pool of classes to analyze.)*

*some of the ideas I got from your later responses and thoughts on post-6 progression actually would, to a degree, solve this issue - see below for details.

QuoteBut compare it to D&D. Setting aside the epic rules, characters were supposed to stop advancing beyond level 20. Since you have effectively just lowered the level cap from 20 to 6, you are essentially designing a game that stops at level 6. Of course it will taper out after that, but so do all class-based games. And as you said earlier, this allows players to actually reach the capstone in their own lifetime. They'll play around with that for a while and then they will whip up new characters for a new game. E6 games are simply not designed for the same year-long campaigns you can run in D&D. You are just ensuring that the game remains intense for the duration of the campaign.

That is something that I honestly hadn't even thought about until you mentioned it - that the basic assumption is that play would stop at level 6 - and one that has me worried to a degree about my system, even though it accomplishes that goal very neatly. [note=Linguistic Tangent]I want to have my cake and eat it too makes no sense - I deliberately reversed the phrase because this way is actually a paradox[/note]But what I want might be trying to eat my cake and have it too - I want DMs to have the option, in X20, of running a years long campaign with the same characters and intricate plots and development (in terms of story) that you can only get in that type of game, but also to run shorter games that stop at 6. The intention was less "you stop at 6" but more "You don't become a god," and I don't want to loose that feel - however, if it comes down to "detailed post 6 progression will dilute or weaken the system," I'll drop that from the system and instead focus entirely on making 1-6 as intense and interesting as possible. However, this is still in its infancy and I'm sure there's tons of possibilities I haven't explored yet, and I'm not willing to give up yet, not until I've exhausted as many avenues as possible. (One "worst case" scenario is making 3 versions of each class, a 6 level version, a 12 level version, and an 18 level version like was earlier suggested (I believe by you) with HD and associated benefits being spread out over those levels to maintain the power level I want but allow for a longer duration of game, and giving the DM the flexibility to choose at the campaign's beginning which style they want - however, that would require a ton of work from me, so I'm saving that for "If nothing else works well.)

That being said, I'm going to keep my primary focus, regardless of ideas I have for post 6 progression, on levels 1-6: I didn't realize it until you pointed it out, but X20's strength's lie mainly in those 6 levels, and I want to make sure that is as refined and exciting as possible before I put too much detailed effort into the later advancement. I'm still loving discussing it and by no means want less feedback in those areas, I just probably won't get around to hammering down details until after I have 1-6 to a much more refined point.

QuoteEDIT: when it comes to post-6 progression, raising the general power level is probably a bad idea since it goes against one of your design tenets. But if you don't want to do away with it completely, consider progression-as-specialization. Post-6 characters would sacrifice versatility in their field for added ability within a single subfield. Sorcerers might sacrifice known spell slots or even entire schools, fighters might disavow entire groups of weaponry and armor and combat styles. In a way you have already done this with the capstone though. Maybe make the capstone ability an upgradable effect?

First, you're absolutely right that a raw power increase goes directly against my design goals, and that's why advancement is so tricky - I don't want to increase raw power but still allow advancement.

Progression in the form of specialization is a fascinating idea and one I hadn't even begun to consider, especially the idea of sacrificing existing abilities as you specialize. This one is going to have to be carefully considered - players usually get disappointed if they loose abilities they already had, and I think this would make the system even further punish multiclass characters, but that doesn't mean it can't be done and isn't worth consideration. Even without sacrificing abilities, the idea of a character advancing in a more narrow instead of a broader path is a great one, and does help reduce the "everyone becomes the same" factor. Upgradable capstones would be a great way to handle this, though I would have to make new Capstones that multiclass characters could take as their first "upgrade" and then later advance - or just make them pick a capstone from one of their classes.

Another idea I'm considering for post 6 that I'd like your thoughts on is what Vreeg mentioned earlier and was discussed by Sparkle, yourself, and a few other people would be "Campaign Rewards" - increased leadership potential, advancement within an organization/the nobility/the clergy etc, new magical rituals, strongholds/bases of operations, allies, or just increased reputation - things that progress the character but do not directly increase power, and things that come with a heavy investment in terms of money or XP or both, but are still rewarding for continuing a game after level 6 is reached and keeps the story moving and developing even though you are at the peak of your power. With this form of advancement might come a slow, limited ability to swap out feats, spells, and perhaps some other character decisions so a player who made some choices they're unhappy with from levels 1-6 isn't stuck with them, but that's something that would have to be handled carefully to avoid characters feeling schizophrenic.

The final idea, and the one I admit sounds best on paper, is inspired by your "upgradable capstones" idea. Instead of being able to advance in a new class, a character could take abilities from their existing class(s) and continue adding them - not things like bonus feats or additional spell levels, but things like Channeling Masteries, Rogue Talents, Bloodline Traits, Fighting Styles, and perhaps additional spells known/cablecast up to their highest level of casting. To prevent a character from taking one level in 6 classes and then stacking these on post-6, you'd have to have at least 2 levels in any class you wish to advance this way. The reason I like this idea is that it rewards both single class characters and multiclass characters, and I like to think that I did a good job of making those abilities (well, Piazo did the work on the rogue talents, but still) situational, which was my intention - most of them would not stack with each other (especially since they all provide a class bonus, a new type of bonus that doesn't stack with itself) and be usable in different situations from existing abilities, so power would not increase but flexibility still would. A single class fighter (Knight) could begin training in a more agile style of combat (Swashbuckler) or find himself more often than expected in situations where he needs to defend an ally (Guardsman) where he could benefit from better teamwork (Soldier) or perhaps sees the value of rough and tumble fighting (Bruiser). Since these abilities are typically gained every other level or every 3 levels, progression would be slower than existing classes, but still occur - especially if the XP cost increases exponentially or even geometrically.

QuoteStill, there has to be a limit somewhere. Unlimited progression is neither fun nor sustainable and all good things must come to an end. Of course, if the XP cost increased exponentially you might be able to put up an artificial limit while keeping the illusion of possible progression.

I agree with you there 100% - but it's impossible to know that limit until I figure how or if I want to work post 6 progression. Just wanted you to know that I agree with you there has to be a hard cap and that all good things must come to an end, I just hope to allow that end to last longer than level 6 if the DMs and players want it to.
Quote from: beejazz
Just wanted to chip in, but another thing you could consider is slowing the numerical side of the power curve and upping the number of levels to fit more unique abilities into the 1-6 progression. HP would be hard to slow this way, but you can do it sneakily by just upping damage potential to match. Likewise you could reset the DCs instead of the skill progression if you want to keep the skill progression math the same.

My problem here is that, while scaling damage with level better and adding more levels would keep danger to the PCs intact, it leaves the problem that the abilities of the PCs would greatly outstrip normal people to a degree I'm not comfortable with, and the threats they would regularly face would become insurmountable by a conventional force, which is something I want to avoid and don't see happening under this model.

QuoteI've been thinking a lot about perk progression in my game, and one thing you can do is have feat types and feats with some number of that feat type as a prerequisite. It can keep the class based feel by using chains without chains that way. Maybe 5 of a type without the prereq and 3ish that require a minimum of 3, with a "cap" that requires a minimum of 5? So after the cap level you can just keep pouring stuff into (lets say) an illusion based feat chain and the character will stay an illusionist instead of becoming a "gish."

This is something that I also haven't considered, and I like quite a bit on paper - it's going on the "consider for post 6" pile, which is rapidly expanding beyond what I had imagined was possible for options. My only problem is the increase in power that feats typically imply, but something like this would be a great way to handle the "advance narrow, not broader" idea that SC came up with above. In fact, merging these two ideas would be the best way to accomplish this, in my opinion.



Thanks for all the feedback - keep 'em coming! Also, I'm going to spend some time at some point reformatting the classes so they're more legible, promise.
AnIndex of My Work

Quote from: Sparkletwist
It's llitul and the brain, llitul and the brain, one is a genius and the other's insane
Proud Receiver of a Golden Dorito
[spoiler=SRD AND OGC AND LEGAL JUNK]UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTED IN THE POST, NONE OF THE ABOVE CONTENT IS CONSIDERED OGC, EXCEPT FOR MATERIALS ALREADY MADE OGC BY PRIOR PUBLISHERS
Appendix I: Open Game License Version 1.0a
The following text is the property of Wizards of the Coast, Inc. and is Copyright 2000 Wizards of the Coast, Inc ("Wizards"). All Rights Reserved.
1. Definitions: (a)"Contributors" means the copyright and/or trademark owners who have contributed Open Game Content; (b)"Derivative Material" means copyrighted material including derivative works and translations (including into other computer languages), potation, modification, correction, addition, extension, upgrade, improvement, compilation, abridgment or other form in which an existing work may be recast, transformed or adapted; (c) "Distribute" means to reproduce, license, rent, lease, sell, broadcast, publicly display, transmit or otherwise distribute; (d)"Open Game Content" means the game mechanic and includes the methods, procedures, processes and routines to the extent such content does not embody the Product Identity and is an enhancement over the prior art and any additional content clearly identified as Open Game Content by the Contributor, and means any work covered by this License, including translations and derivative works under copyright law, but specifically excludes Product Identity. (e) "Product Identity" means product and product line names, logos and identifying marks including trade dress; artifacts; creatures characters; stories, storylines, plots, thematic elements, dialogue, incidents, language, artwork, symbols, designs, depictions, likenesses, formats, poses, concepts, themes and graphic, photographic and other visual or audio representations; names and descriptions of characters, spells, enchantments, personalities, teams, personas, likenesses and special abilities; places, locations, environments, creatures, equipment, magical or supernatural abilities or effects, logos, symbols, or graphic designs; and any other trademark or registered trademark clearly identified as Product identity by the owner of the Product Identity, and which specifically excludes the Open Game Content; (f) "Trademark" means the logos, names, mark, sign, motto, designs that are used by a Contributor to identify itself or its products or the associated products contributed to the Open Game License by the Contributor (g) "Use", "Used" or "Using" means to use, Distribute, copy, edit, format, modify, translate and otherwise create Derivative Material of Open Game Content. (h) "You" or "Your" means the licensee in terms of this agreement.
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Open Game License v 1.0 Copyright 2000, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
Fudge 10th Anniversary Edition Copyright 2005, Grey Ghost Press, Inc.; Authors Steffan O'Sullivan and Ann Dupuis, with additional material by Jonathan Benn, Peter Bonney, Deird'Re Brooks, Reimer Behrends, Don Bisdorf, Carl Cravens, Shawn Garbett, Steven Hammond, Ed Heil, Bernard Hsiung, J.M. "Thijs" Krijger, Sedge Lewis, Shawn Lockard, Gordon McCormick, Kent Matthewson, Peter Mikelsons, Robb Neumann, Anthony Roberson, Andy Skinner, William Stoddard, Stephan Szabo, John Ughrin, Alex Weldon, Duke York, Dmitri Zagidulin
System Reference Document Copyright 2000-2003, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Authors Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, Skip Williams, Rich Baker, Andy Collins, David Noonan, Rich Redman, Bruce R. Cordell, based on original material by E. Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson.

Modern System Reference Doument Copyright 2002, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Authors Bill Slavicsek, Jeff Grubb, Rich Redman, Charles Ryan, based on material by Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, Richard Baker, Peter Adkison, Bruce R. Cordell, John Tynes, Andy Collins, and JD Walker.

Unearthed Arcana Copyright 2004, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Andy Collins, Jesse Decker, David Noonan, Rich Redman.

Mutants and Masterminds Second Edition Copyright 2005, Green Ronin Publishing; Steve Kenson
Fate (Fantastic Adventures in Tabletop Entertainment) Copyright 2003 by Evil Hat Productions, LLC. Authors Robert Donoghue and Fred Hicks.
Spirit of the Century Copyright 2006 by Evil Hat Productions, LLC. Authors Robert Donoghue, Fred Hicks, and Leonard Balsera
Xathan's forum posts at http://www.thecbg.org Copyright 2006-2011, J.A. Raizman.
[/spoiler]

beejazz

On the math and scaling, 6th level is peak human condition because (for example) you can jump like an olympic athlete. All you would need to do in order to raise the level cap you can work with (while keeping the "level cap is peak human condition" thing) is make sure DCs are similar in the early game and reach 6th level capabilities around the level cap you want. Doing this on the DC side means you don't even have to change the way skills work.

The only thing to watch out for is whether you want low level NPCs to be a threat for high level foes. If the numeric gap isn't capped around 10 or less low level foes and high level players will still be in different leagues. If the numeric gap is capped around 10 or less, there might not be much statistical difference between characters at low levels. I get around this with a combination of major systemic changes including active defense (so if the party gets ganged up on it's a big deal), slow scaling damage/MDT, and wounds. I don't think you want to go this far (or for our games to look that alike) so slow scaling bonuses might be a good idea. If you want a bunch of conscripts to challenge people at the peak of human condition.
Beejazz's Homebrew System
 Beejazz's Homebrew Discussion

QuoteI don't believe in it anyway.
What?
England.
Just a conspiracy of cartographers, then?

Xeviat

Quick question, sorry if it was already asked: how are you utilizing saving throws? You have attack bonus scaling differently from saving throws, so I hope they aren't associated with each other.
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Kindling

Ever since I heard of the concept, there is a rule I have always implemented in my d20 games to keep mobs of low-level enemies dangerous for longer. Obviously, with your changes to the system you may no longer feel it necessary or worthwhile but I thought I'd mention it anyway cause it seems to suit the more "gritty"/high-threat-level concept of a lower level variant.
I think I first heard of it being a part of Mongoose's d20 Conan RPG several years ago, but it also crops up in other places (some not even d20, such as Savage Worlds) in a few variations. The rule is simply that any character making melee attacks gains a +1 bonus to hit for every other character who previously made melee attacks against the same target that round. This way even the most expert of warriors with the very biggest of shields can still only effectively defend against one opponent, or at best a handful. As soon as s/he is surrounded on all sides by a press of enemies, it's likely that at least a couple of their blows will land home, no matter how good s/he is.
I suppose another (more complex) way of doing this would be to have AC/Defence/Parry/whatever stat stops people killing you be more of a resource than a fixed target number. So when your character is attacked the GM will ask "how many AC points are you defending against this orc with?" and you may put all of them against the first attack, or you may only put a few against the orc, knowing that the ogre might be about to swing for you with a much more powerful attack, and wanting to save most of your AC for that.
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