Working on a magic system that involves 4(5?) elements. (Not a mechanics thread)

[Weave]

I'm working on a magic system that works around the concept of using a magic ink to inscribe spells on the ground (or other surface) around the caster. The idea is that spellcasters (called lyricists) would wield these great glaive-like staves that would be filled with said ink so they could write their spells around them. In order for this "lyricism" to work, it needs to be anchored to a force that can give it meaning, i.e., the caster, so the spells are always written around them. But I'm not here to explain the specifics of that...

I'm wondering what you guys can think of that I haven't about my elements. Lyricism creates things by writing them into existence. The easiest things to create are the most basic of elements - fire, water, earth, and air. A small plume of flame is a fairly simple thing, but a jet of lava or a bolt of lightning requires a fundamental understanding of what forces act in concert to make those things happen. Here's some of my problems:

Earth is fairly vague to me. I'm assuming it to be, at its most basic, stones and dirt, but I think, with some time and diligence, someone could create a tree or maybe a small hill. Someone with a incredible amount of time and precision could possibly even make a highly refined, man-made object, like a wooden sailing ship.

Fire and Air seem simple, but I'm having a hard time thinking of what more complicated things can be created through them.

I also want to add the element of "spirit" to this, but I'm not sure if I can justify its presence. Spirit and earth might make wood, for instance, or just a plant in general. Spirit and fire might make lightning, but I'm not sure what spirit and air or water might do. Spirit implies a certain life in things, and while lightning certainly isn't alive by our standards, it might just represent a vibrant spontaneity or something.

I also find that earth tends to dominate most creations I think of: for instance, to make a gun one might need an mastery of using fire and earth to create metal, the skill to merge earth and spirit to create wood (maybe for the handle), fire and earth to create gunpowder and the bullets, etc.

I'm looking for any suggestions. Help is always appreciated  :).

[Superfluous Crow]

You could consider using the five Chinese elements instead: earth, fire, water, metal and wood. This seems like it would be a better suited set of base components for a conjuration system.
If he could draw/write spirits he could make summoned creatures or some such. Also fire could be interpreted as energy and be used to draw moving objects. He could draw "knife" and send it flying by drawing "movement". Or some such. You could also use air for that I guess. Air seems a little arbitrary actually since I'm sure your intent is that they can draw a wind for example, but that's more like making the present air move than it is a conjuration of more air.
Likewise, earth could be used to draw "pressure" or "weight".

[Weave]

7:04 pm   TheHorse: Could look at quantities of systems like that and name elements after them
7:04 pm   Weave: like, wind could be movement or something
7:04 pm   TheHorse: pressure, heat, volume, inertia, work, gravity
7:04 pm   TheHorse: hmm
7:04 pm   Weave: hmm
7:04 pm   Weave: I like that
7:05 pm   sparkletwist: you could also look at some of the vague categories used in mage (the wod game)
7:05 pm   TheHorse: yeah they have some useful stuff
7:05 pm   TheHorse: i think they have six schools

I think Omega made a great point there as well. It might be best to abstract them a little more and turn them into pressure, heat, volume, etc. Likewise, MtA is something I've looked at and thought about borrowing.

You could consider using the five Chinese elements instead: earth, fire, water, metal and wood. This seems like it would be a better suited set of base components for a conjuration system.
If he could draw/write spirits he could make summoned creatures or some such. Also fire could be interpreted as energy and be used to draw moving objects. He could draw "knife" and send it flying by drawing "movement". Or some such. You could also use air for that I guess. Air seems a little arbitrary actually since I'm sure your intent is that they can draw a wind for example, but that's more like making the present air move than it is a conjuration of more air.
Likewise, earth could be used to draw "pressure" or "weight".

Hmm, it had occurred to me to try the Chinese element system, and under your examples it does seem to make a lot more sense, especially with air being sort of redundant. I like this a lot!

[Elemental_Elf]

It might be easier to describe what you want each element to do, then apply an appropriate name to it.

For example, let's say you want one of the elements to do the following:

- Create tangible objects that can be hurled at enemies
- Create lasting objects that can be used for generations
- Create objects of both monumental size and grandeur

With those criteria, you could label this element Wood, Metal or Earth.

[Xeviat]

I, too, am using elementalism extensively in my world. The exacteries keep changing, so I haven't yet set them all in stone, but here's what I have so far; maybe it will give you some ideas.

The four fundamental elements are Air, Earth, Fire, and Water, and Japanese/Greek style I bind them with Aether/Void. At the junction of each element is a mixture: currently, the mixtures are Air/Fire - Lightning, Fire/Earth - Metal, Earth/Water - Wood, Water/Air - Cold (this last one, I don't like).

Alternately, those four "extra" elements may just be purified applications of one or the other. Cold is Water, Wood is Earth, Metal is Fire, and Lightning is Air; I can always spin it the other way, to make Cold Air, Wood Water, Metal Earth, and Lightning Fire. Both of these directions make sense, and both have equal faults.

Additionally, each of the fundamental elements has an effect and standing on the body and mind. Air is Agility and Perception, Fire is Vitality and Charisma, Earth is Strength and Wisdom, and Water is Dexterity and "Empathy" (social senses, social defense). I'm also looking at expanding the stats out to being physical, mental, and social, as it ends up making the most sense.

As for alternate applications of Air and Fire, lightning is commonly seen as a specialized use of fire, and weather is often associated with air. Light itself could be related to Fire, and if you allow an element to handle the absence of itself as well, darkness and cold can fit into Fire.

[Superfluous Crow]

I tihnk you should focus on the, in D&D terms, conjuration rather than the evocation here. A system like this will be rather dull if the only thing you can do is draw up energy and then throw it. Focusing on the summoning, creation and construction of objects and creatures makes much more sense.
Considering your avatar and the general anime-ness of the idea (giant ink-glaives) I can't help but wonder if you have read Fullmetal Alchemist? Their "magic" system is very much based on the summoning and construction of objects and the like, also using symbols (less glaives, though). (I'm in no way accusing you of ripping it off, far from it, but it might be a good source of inspiration!)

Xev, not to derail the thread or anything, but you could make water/air Vapor, Steam, Rain, or Storm.

All things said though, I'm not a fan of elementalism. Seems a bit trite and overdone to be honest, but of course it all depends on how it is done.

[LordVreeg]

I, too, am using elementalism extensively in my world. The exacteries keep changing, so I haven't yet set them all in stone, but here's what I have so far; maybe it will give you some ideas.

The four fundamental elements are Air, Earth, Fire, and Water, and Japanese/Greek style I bind them with Aether/Void. At the junction of each element is a mixture: currently, the mixtures are Air/Fire - Lightning, Fire/Earth - Metal, Earth/Water - Wood, Water/Air - Cold (this last one, I don't like).

Alternately, those four "extra" elements may just be purified applications of one or the other. Cold is Water, Wood is Earth, Metal is Fire, and Lightning is Air; I can always spin it the other way, to make Cold Air, Wood Water, Metal Earth, and Lightning Fire. Both of these directions make sense, and both have equal faults.

Additionally, each of the fundamental elements has an effect and standing on the body and mind. Air is Agility and Perception, Fire is Vitality and Charisma, Earth is Strength and Wisdom, and Water is Dexterity and "Empathy" (social senses, social defense). I'm also looking at expanding the stats out to being physical, mental, and social, as it ends up making the most sense.

As for alternate applications of Air and Fire, lightning is commonly seen as a specialized use of fire, and weather is often associated with air. Light itself could be related to Fire, and if you allow an element to handle the absence of itself as well, darkness and cold can fit into Fire.

I ended up with a longer list of spell types, but the idea of using elelments is always a good one.

One of the places cruch and fluff really overlap is in magic, as magic is part of the 'physics' of a setting and crunch is the 'physics engine' that interprets the setting to the players.

Understanding how the mixed spells work in both needs to be thought out ahead of time.  Many weather spells are realy mixes of water and air, creating a potion of fire breathing or fire immunity may involve some fire and water, etc.

[Weave]

I tihnk you should focus on the, in D&D terms, conjuration rather than the evocation here. A system like this will be rather dull if the only thing you can do is draw up energy and then throw it. Focusing on the summoning, creation and construction of objects and creatures makes much more sense.
Considering your avatar and the general anime-ness of the idea (giant ink-glaives) I can't help but wonder if you have read Fullmetal Alchemist? Their "magic" system is very much based on the summoning and construction of objects and the like, also using symbols (less glaives, though). (I'm in no way accusing you of ripping it off, far from it, but it might be a good source of inspiration!)

Xev, not to derail the thread or anything, but you could make water/air Vapor, Steam, Rain, or Storm.

All things said though, I'm not a fan of elementalism. Seems a bit trite and overdone to be honest, but of course it all depends on how it is done.

I actually agree with your opinion on elementalism. I searched for a long time for an alternative, building-block type system to design without getting too nitty-gritty (no chemical forumlae or period table, please) while still maintaining a level of "put two and two together and you get this." Elementalism was, admittedly, a last resort of sorts. I'm completely open to alternatives!

Anyways, it might surprise you to know that I actually have a strong dislike for anime (I realize there's good anime out there, I just... I dunno, there's a certain stigma associated with it for me). My avatar ironically comes from my favorite show, Avatar the Last Airbender (which is about as close to being anime without technically being it), and I'll admit that it probably had an impact in my decision making for using the elements. I've heard of Full Metal Alchemist and recall seeing maybe one or two episodes many years ago, but otherwise I never thought of the connection the two had.

EDIT: On the other hand, it's possible that maybe I'm thinking too much into it. I could look into making it function more like a series of alchemical signatures that I could handwave as being "really complicated and having lots of various formulae," but it grates against my desires of wanting to understand it, at least in a simple sense.

On the other, other hand, it occurred to me last night that maybe this system is a lot like computer code. People have a language to work with and basically make triggers and shortcuts within an existing "program" of their own design (the computer savvy people will have to forgive me if I'm throwing out inaccurate terms here; I am anything but literate in this area of design). Thoughts?

[Stryker25B]

It sounds similar to the way magic works in the Inheritance Cycle by Christopher Paolini. Magic is it's own language, though knowing the words alone is not enough to achieve what the caster desires and can have catastrophic consequences if done incorrectly. Words are combined into phrases for different end results.

On the subject of elements, you mentioned wanting a "spirit" type of element. Have you considered using "Life" and "Death" in place of spirit? That solves your logic leap of earth = tree; it would be earth+life = tree. Of course it may need to be more complicated than that, earth+life could easily be rock golem, flower or giant venus flytrap. That would fall more into the mechanics of it all, though. It reminds me of the game Alchemy in which you start with 4 basic elements, combine those to make new elements which are then combined to make more, etc.

[Kindling]

Who was it many years ago who had a setting with something like ash, blood, smoke and... maybe two others as the elements? I can't really remember that well, it was a long time ago, but I liked the idea.

[Magnus Pym]

I think staying simple and flexible would work pretty good. IMO it's all in the storytelling. I don't know the fluff of your setting, but at first glance I'd say use Earth, Fire, Water, Air and build on that. Lightning could be as much air as it could be fire. Landslides, earthquakes, tidal waves and volcanic eruptions can be triggered by something else than their obvious element. Have the earth shaken, we'll see if the volcanoes don't go crazy for a few. And what of earthquakes creating tsunamis? Then force a volcanic explosion, the area will tremble, perhaps causing other natural mishaps (Though that might be exagerated?).

[Weave]

I think I'm actually going to go with the idea of the language of magic being a string of codes, written in a runic algorithm that the lyricist (spellcaster) can manipulate to create more complicated effects. So instead of using traditional western or eastern elements they'd be building off of linguistic elements of the "language of magic."

I became fixated on the idea when I envisioned the housing unit for the magic code to be a glass sphere that contained the 3 dimensional runic algorithms frozen inside it. I'm not sure how they'd manipulate it yet; I imagine the sphere being about 6 inches in diameter so it can be carried around without too much encumbrance. I guess that'd my problem - I tend to picture things I like and worry about the physical ramifications later :). C'est la vie.

[Superfluous Crow]

If you still want to do an "elementary" model you could make processes the basic building blocks instead of the materials. Maybe they'd just work with the material at hand, making the magic focus on transmutation.
When I say processes, I mean that their "lyrics" might be composed of runes like "lift", "heat", "shape", "liquefy", "compress", "twist" etc.

[sparkletwist]

I thought you were already pretty solid on magic being a language; I personally always liked the idea. :D

As for elements, we can talk about it in more detail on IRC later if you'd like. I think you've dug into Asura enough to notice that elements are a pretty strong theme in my setting as well. Like Xeviat, I'll run down what I did and maybe there will be some inspiration there.

I have five elements: fire, earth, water, air, and void. Each one is linked to a character trait (Power to Fire, Vitality to Earth, Senses to Water, Grace to Air, and Mind to Void) and of course each one has its own symbolism. I'm sort of flexible on what element does exactly what, depending on the circumstances, though-- trying too hard to tie down any given effect with one element constrains me and it constrains players, so my advice would be that you don't need to worry about it too much. As long as you can clearly envision a general purview for each element, you should be good.

[Weave]

Thanks for the input. It'll be good to look at a few preexisting systems to get a good foundation for what I might have in mind. I would like to discuss more of it over IRC... right now I'm actually unable to get on there, but possibly later tonight or sometime tomorrow during the day at the latest. In the meantime, as a tech-savvy programmer, I'd be interested in hearing some common issues with coding that you might've run into; I could use some of those mishaps as a basis for magical errors in my world. For instance, my friend writes code for some custom games and sometimes the triggers don't end up working and nothing happens... or the whole system crashes. I wonder what the ramifications for the "system crashing" would be in this more magical case.