"Influenced" and "Ripping off"- What's the difference?

[Elemental_Elf]

Star Wars also brazenly copied the framework of The Heroes Journey by Joeseph Campbell.

Campbell's heroic journey is meant to be an archetypal myth: that is, a type of myth-structure universally common, found in multiple cultures and traditions.  The whole point of the hero's journey, for Campbell, is that it's a kind of monomyth, cropping up again and again, whether or not it's deliberate: there's something about it that's archetypal, that has universal mythic appeal.  Gilgamesh, Beowulf, The Odyssey, Harry Potter, fairy tales - all of these things follow the heroic journey to some extent.  You can't really "rip it off" since by its very nature it's meant to underlie all heroic myth to one degree or another.

What I am contending is that he read the Heroes Journey and used it like crib notes to fashion the original Star Wars movie.

We all saw what happened when he didn't follow the template with the prequels. There were nuggets of good stories in those three movies but, on the whole, the journey was not satisfying in the least, especially compared  to the original trilogy.

I'd agree that Star Wars pretty brazenly copies The Hidden Fortress, but I'd argue it owes as much to Dune (desert planet, psychic/mystic order, powerful empire, messianic rebel leader, elements of feudalism-in-space), Flash Gordon (complete with Chewbaca-esque aliens, another evil empire, sky-cities, dogfighting spacecraft, and an overall pulpy feel), and WWII (lots and lots of Nazi imagery, the trench run sequence is cribbed from a WWII bomber movie, etc).  Star Wars is highly derivative in a certain sense, but it's influenced by lots and lots of stuff - it's not just stealing from one source.  That's what makes it creative and, in a perverse sense, "original."

Everything is citation.  Nothing appears out of whole cloth.

A lot of that is very common tropes in general that do not truly belong to any one work of art. What Lucas did with The Hidden Fortress was to borrow ideas, concepts, motifs, characters, etc., to a degree to which he did not do with other works.

[Steerpike]

I'll buy that it was a bigger influence than a lot of others.

[LoA]

Actually now that I keep thinking about this, I keep thinking back to Bob Kane. Batman was basically a good guy version rip-off of "The Bat" which was a serial killer flick from the late 20's.

[Elemental_Elf]

Actually now that I keep thinking about this, I keep thinking back to Bob Kane. Batman was basically a good guy version rip-off of "The Bat" which was a serial killer flick from the late 20's.

Never heard of the Bat before, pretty cool!

I was doing a bit of digging on Wikipedia and apparently The Bat was based off a Braodway play by Mary Roberts Rinehart. On her Wikipedia page, it says The Bat was one of Bob Kane's inspirations for Batman. 

[LD]

Star Wars was, however, much better than Hidden Fortress... on the level of how Episode 4 was better than Episode 1 :D. So even works of art that borrow from earlier ones can be better.

[Xeviat]

Entirely unhelpful as my advice may be, it also has to do with the age of something, or how many times a story has been retold. Also, if you are going to brazenly copy something, make it clear that you are: don't set out to retell Snow White and then try to hide that it's Snow White (unless that, in itself, is the joke).

[LordVreeg]

Star Wars was, however, much better than Hidden Fortress... on the level of how Episode 4 was better than Episode 1 :D. So even works of art that borrow from earlier ones can be better.

Never forget how much lucas borrowed, either.  Dude almost felt he had to buy the rights to things a few times to cover his butt.

[LD]

At least Kurosawa's Seven Samurai was better than The Magnificent Seven :D ...although some editing/deletion of a few tedious scenes could have made it still better. So some adaptations don't work as well as the original... and I have Seven Swords, the Chinese version, sitting on my TV... I'm afraid to see how bad that adaptation is.

[Elemental_Elf]

At least Kurosawa's Seven Samurai was better than The Magnificent Seven :D ...although some editing/deletion of a few tedious scenes could have made it still better. So some adaptations don't work as well as the original... and I have Seven Swords, the Chinese version, sitting on my TV... I'm afraid to see how bad that adaptation is.

Have you see the Live Action Last Airbender movie... *shudders*

[LoA]

At least Kurosawa's Seven Samurai was better than The Magnificent Seven :D ...although some editing/deletion of a few tedious scenes could have made it still better. So some adaptations don't work as well as the original... and I have Seven Swords, the Chinese version, sitting on my TV... I'm afraid to see how bad that adaptation is.

Have you see the Live Action Last Airbender movie... *shudders*

"Shudders" is right...

And I have been keeping up with a lot of what you guys are talking about. I saw Fistful of Dollars before I saw Yojimbo, and ultimately I like them both for different reasons. Yojimbo for it's classic charm, and Fistful of Dollars for introducing me to Clint Eastwood who is awesome.

[Matt Larkin (author)]

Seven Swords was okay.