Dark Souls Discussion Thread

[Hibou]

The Dark Souls Discussion Thread

or Dark Souls: How it Breaks Your Heart and Inspires Your Setting

This is definitely, most certainly, most-hoersily the place to discuss all things Dark Souls (including the upcoming, most indubitably [mathematically] awesome sequel), whether or not you've actually played the game. This extends both to the game itself, and as the title suggests, to the way it inspires you to write your campaign settings (I know it has simply ruined me). To help everyone get started, I'll post a few excellent video links and a few sample questions people can answer about their experience to get the ball rolling:

Some minor spoilers in the videos listed.

This one really captures the eerie feeling of the setting; a lore trailer

Prepare to Die Edtion (expansion) Trailer

Bartholomew Trailer

Video on Lautrec, a major NPC and one of the more popular characters in the game (minor spoilers) <-- This entire series on the characters and backstory is awesome, well worth a watch. Some of it may seem cryptic. Lots of the game is left open to interpretation

Gwyn and the First Flame (Part 1) (very minor spoilers)

Part 2



And now for some sample questions:

Who's your favorite character and why?

How do you feel about the divisions of magic (Pyromancy, Miracles, Sorcery)?

What is your favorite location in the game?

What was your first experience with death in the game (it happens a lot :))

Thoughts on the covenants (there are nine, each corresponding to one of the nine alignments)?

Thoughts on the ending and relation to covenants? (spoiler blocks please)

Most importantly, how has the setting inspired you?

[ooc]Since I haven't been around for a while I figured I'd start this thread instead of just rebooting my settings, both because they're not ready and because I really love this game, and see that there are at least a few others on the site
who have played it and are interested in its discussion. If you have any other ideas for things to discuss related to Dark Souls/Demon's Souls/etc. don't hesitate to post them.[/ooc]

[SA]

Dark Souls is wonderfully Ambiguous. Geographically, Historically, and most importantly, morally.

Very few of the bosses are established as deserving death: much like Shadow of the Colossus they're just sort of In Your Way. Many of them are tragic figures, perhaps the victims of their own experimentations (Pinwheel, Quelaag, the Bed of Chaos), or the folly (Ceaseless Discharge) or malice (Priscilla) of others. One was the willing martyr to an unsustainable cause (Gwyn). One manufactured a figment symbol of hope (Gwyndolin) while two others defended that phantasm to their deaths (Ornstein and Smough). One ventured into the creeping dark and was consumed by it (Artorias); his companion protected his empty grave to preserve a noble lie and prevent others following in his stead (Sif).

Only a few are simply monstrous. The Demons lack motivation of any kind (and are in need of none) while the Golem and Gargoyles are grueling tests of your worth. Seath was a traitor from the first and a lunatic in the end. Manus ushers forth the Dark. The Gaping Dragon, transformed by its hunger, seaks simply to consume. But most are dwindling, diminishing, Darkening Souls. And then you kill them.

[Hibou]

Dark Souls is wonderfully Ambiguous. Geographically, Historically, and most importantly, morally.

Very few of the bosses are established as deserving death: much like Shadow of the Colossus they're just sort of In Your Way. Many of them are tragic figures, perhaps the victims of their own experimentations (Pinwheel, Quelaag, the Bed of Chaos), or the folly (Ceaseless Discharge) or malice (Priscilla) of others, or else willing martyrs of an uncertain cause (Gwyn). One manufactured a figment symbol of hope (Gwyndolin) while two others defended that symbol to the death (Ornstein and Smough), perhaps ignorant of his deception. One ventured into the creeping dark and was consumed by it (Artorias) and his companion protected his empty grave to preserve a noble lie and prevent others following in his stead (Sif).

Only a few are simply monstrous. The demons lack motivation of any kind (except perhaps destruction) while the Golem and Gargoyles are grueling tests of your worth. Seath was a traitor from the first and a lunatic in the end. Manus ushers forth the Dark. the Gaping Dragon, transformed by its hunger, seaks simply to consume. But most are dwindling, diminishing, darkening. And then you kill them.

Well put. How do you feel about the covenants? I'm absolutely in love with the lore of the Darkwraiths and how they, the Chaotic Evil covenant, are the harbingers of the Age of Dark. Their reasons for being evil being mainly that they're out to spoil the status quo imposed upon Lordran by the gods. They're stealing humanity, preventing the kindling of bonfires, and getting in the way of those that want to perpetuate Gwyn's realm, and you can be one

How about the Gravelords? Essentially no purpose but to cause grief in the lives of others.

I can't get over the fantastic nature of the setting, specifically the way one area often finds itself transitioning into the next. Ancient elevator mechanisms, a fall into darkness, a great hallway lined with statues, holes in the basements of crumbling castles; all such simple yet dauntingly impressive ways to connect areas. It's also one of the few settings where I actually appreciate the presence of deities. It's been a massive inspiration both towards the supernatural nature of my setting itself (there's a parallel world that bears resemblance to much of Lordran, and is the home of demons and whatnot) and towards the relative power levels of everything in my settings (if you were to put everything in Pathfinder, the "gods" and most powerful demons would all be the equivalent of mid-CR monsters and say, 13th- to 15th-level characters).

[SA]

I like how asymmetrical the Covenants are. In fact, I like Dark Souls' asymmetry in general: the gods are less a pantheon and more an assortment of powerful individuals. The setting is a compressed contradictory space. When I reached the bottom of the Great Hollow and stood in the midst of the towering silent Archtrees...

I feel like that section of the game, with the Everlasting Dragon seeming irrevelant yet sitting imperious and unassailable in its hideaway, speaks to a dimension of the setting that is almost unacknowledged:

The dragons are not gone. There may be more we cannot see. They are heedless of the abyss and will survive us all.

[Lmns Crn]

A thing I really like about deities in this setting is that the line gets really fuzzy around what is a god and what is not. I don't think it's ever actually stated, but I get the strong impression that the gods in this setting are only gods because they've got a lot of power, and the answer to "how much power do you really need before someone starts worshiping you?" is a bit subjective. Gwyn and Nito and the Witch of Izalith  got some of the best power when they picked up the primordial flame, but that didn't really give them fancy fire magic, it just made them more of what they were already becoming. It magnified their scale.

I love the symbolism of stuff like fire in this game, too. The whole game mechanic around pyromancy starts to get really intense when you consider what fire means in the setting, and just who you're emulating when you go around carrying a flame and making it respond to your will. The mechanics reinforce the lore, in that pyromancy doesn't give a crap about who you are or what stats you need, and it doesn't require you to collect esoteric catalysts or whatever. You just pick up a flame and go, and your flame grows with you.

One thing I extra specially love about this game is the way it evokes places you never see. You know what Carim is like, and Thorolund, and Balder, and Vinheim, etc., because you know what kinds of people and things come from those places. Nothing ever barfs forth lore at you: "Carim is like this...", but you do know it's associated with ornate rapiers and creepy cursed rings and a goddess of sin, and an image starts to take shape.

[SA]

Who's your favorite character and why?

If thou art in need, pray summon me again.
I only wish to be of some genuine assistance...
May the flames guide thee.

Followed closely by Sif. When I whittle his health down and he begins to stagger and stumble, yet still hefts that legendary sword in his jaws in honour of his damned comrade, though it means his own life...

It breaks my heart to pieces.

What is your favorite location in the game?

Ash Lake.

Again: the Dragon, the Archtrees... an Endless Grey Expanse that shall outlast the age of Man.

Most importantly, how has the setting inspired you?

The Torchbearer game I'm preparing is modelled heavily after the tone of Dark Souls. In fact, the tone of Torchbearer is pretty much all you have to tweak to get it feeling like a Souls game. The game's merciless.

As far as settings go, the ambiguity and asymmetry so familiar to the Souls series are qualities I've been trying to evoke in my own work (with occasional success) since long before the games existed. It's why I'm drawn to them in the first place.

One thing I extra specially love about this game is the way it evokes places you never see. You know what Carim is like, and Thorolund, and Balder, and Vinheim, etc., because you know what kinds of people and things come from those places. Nothing ever barfs forth lore at you: "Carim is like this...", but you do know it's associated with ornate rapiers and creepy cursed rings and a goddess of sin, and an image starts to take shape.

A thousand times this.

[Matt Larkin (author)]

It sounds really interesting. I never really gave it a try because all the reviews said it was kind of masochistic. For someone with very limited time for games, I'm not sure I'd enjoy the frustration. Given that frustration is... frustrating.

[Lmns Crn]

It's truly not that bad. Game is tough but (usually) fair, and kind of gives me an old-school Nintendo vibe in terms of its difficulty.

The game is difficult, but most of that difficulty can be broken through by using items in clever ways, trying different tactics, and watching closely to learn enemy timings. The only thing about the game that's genuinely "masochistic" is that it doesn't really explain itself clearly, and rather than hand-holding and extensive tutorials, learning is really a matter of trial and error (which means you die a lot). It's a game that's designed for dying a lot to be okay, and even expected.

[SA]

The music is awesome also.

Anyone have any thoughts on how to transplant the Dark Souls vibe into an rpg?

[Matt Larkin (author)]

Okay, LC, that encourages me a bit. Maybe I will yet give it a shot.

[Lmns Crn]

I have put like 90 hours into the game since I started playing it two weeks ago. No joke.

[Lmns Crn]

Anyone have any thoughts on how to transplant the Dark Souls vibe into an rpg?

I feel like the main elements are:

* the lack of a reliable narrator, or atlas, or objective trustworthy source of information about the world
* "magical thinking" (insofar as things work like you want them to, not so much as is realistic, i.e., Smough gaining strength and size by grinding his victims' bones into his feed-- it's intuitive but not logical)
* sin and consequences-- everybody is assumed to be on the verge of falling, it's only a matter of time; everybody has a million dark secrets in their storied pasts
* many layers of symbolism-- fire, for example, means upheaval of the status quo, and it means humanity's triumph over primal forces, and it means the will actuated, and it means the power by which the gods reign, and it means the sun and lightning, and it means etc. and etc. and etc.

[SA]

* featured in both Dark and Demon's Souls: the sense that the world beyond the game's core setting is largely unaffected by the goings on inside (at least until you reach the games' fateful final choice)
* whole cultures represented by one or two NPCs
* solitude and self-sufficiency
* parallel advancement: as you progress through the world so do the NPCs. They too journey alone, pursuing their fate, guarding their secrets closely. Opportunities for cooperation are few. Sometimes, inexplicably, you will find a friend transformed into a foe.

the lack of a reliable narrator, or atlas, or objective trustworthy source of information about the world

Not so much a function of reliability as of scarcity. Knowledge is delivered a few precious lines at a time. This makes every statement and description incredibly dense. You must work towards an imperfect understanding. Doubt is what makes this world real.

[Matt Larkin (author)]

What is the connection between Dark Souls and Demon Souls?

[Hibou]

What is the connection between Dark Souls and Demon Souls?

Dark Souls is the spiritual successor to Demon Souls, written by the same company. They started a new series I believe because Sony owns the rights to Demon Souls (and rumor is they're working on their own sequel to Demon Souls while From works on Dark Souls 2).