Xev20 Countdown - Class Uniqueness

[Xeviat]

Clerics will definitely have a more limited spell pool than wizards do. Their spells are of equal power, though, and I'd prefer if they had a nearly equal spell progression, only because I like the idea of using one "full caster" and one "half caster" chart for classes.

Wizards are about versatility, and they pay for that versatility with a loss of durability (they have to spend spells to get back up to the durability of other classes, which would then limit their offensive ability). While wizards do specialize in different schools, their specialization only makes them better with their specialty, rather than limiting them to their specialty.

Clerics are limited by their specialty. There will be a universal domain, but I like the idea of Clerics being rather limited to their domains.

The trouble is that that doesn't really lend itself to a playstyle. A Cleric of the God of Magic is going to be quite similar to the Wizard. The only thing that separates them is that the Cleric is using divine magic and the Wizard is using arcane magic.

That seems like that needs to be the angle I need to tackle it from then. I think the simple answer is to make their spell casting function differently. Wizards and Sorcerers played differently in 3rd by having different preparation mechanics. Psions play differently with their PP mechanic. Maybe Clerics could be spontaneous casters, casting spells from their domains without preparation? Spells outside their domains would need to be cast as rituals, or maybe they could pray for them in combat.

Hmmm ... that has some potential. I'll ruminate over that. It could be extended to Paladins as well, making them spontaneous based. Should Druids and Rangers be spontaneous as well, sharing it between all divine casters? Or should druids prepare, representing a more primitive and even arcane understanding of divine power than the more chosen nature of clerics and paladins?

[Ghostman]

That seems like that needs to be the angle I need to tackle it from then. I think the simple answer is to make their spell casting function differently. Wizards and Sorcerers played differently in 3rd by having different preparation mechanics. Psions play differently with their PP mechanic. Maybe Clerics could be spontaneous casters, casting spells from their domains without preparation? Spells outside their domains would need to be cast as rituals, or maybe they could pray for them in combat.

Hmmm ... that has some potential. I'll ruminate over that. It could be extended to Paladins as well, making them spontaneous based. Should Druids and Rangers be spontaneous as well, sharing it between all divine casters? Or should druids prepare, representing a more primitive and even arcane understanding of divine power than the more chosen nature of clerics and paladins?

Would it be too much of a leap to split the divine magic into two? Then you'd have those who rely on earthly forces of nature (druid, ranger) and those who rely on more cosmic deities and concepts (cleric, paladin). Their differences could be represented by different spellcasting mechanics (eg. spontaneous for cleric and paladin, point-based for druid and ranger) and perhaps even by stat dependency (wisdom and charisma).

This would be a major deviation from traditional D&D assumptions, but it has potential for a more interesting "trinity" or magic than the divine vs arcane dualism.

[Xathan]

Clerics will definitely have a more limited spell pool than wizards do. Their spells are of equal power, though, and I'd prefer if they had a nearly equal spell progression, only because I like the idea of using one "full caster" and one "half caster" chart for classes.

Curious, unrelated to clerics: what chart will bards use, then? Do they get a full 9 levels, or go with their 6 level class from 3.5?

Clerics are limited by their specialty. There will be a universal domain, but I like the idea of Clerics being rather limited to their domains.

The trouble is that that doesn't really lend itself to a playstyle. A Cleric of the God of Magic is going to be quite similar to the Wizard. The only thing that separates them is that the Cleric is using divine magic and the Wizard is using arcane magic.

I think you could make an argument that "Specialized spellcaster" is a playstyle, though! Look at the Warmage from the 3.5 Complete Arcane, which do play completely different from wizards, and that's largely due to specalization.

That seems like that needs to be the angle I need to tackle it from then. I think the simple answer is to make their spell casting function differently. Wizards and Sorcerers played differently in 3rd by having different preparation mechanics. Psions play differently with their PP mechanic. Maybe Clerics could be spontaneous casters, casting spells from their domains without preparation? Spells outside their domains would need to be cast as rituals, or maybe they could pray for them in combat.

Hmmm ... that has some potential. I'll ruminate over that. It could be extended to Paladins as well, making them spontaneous based. Should Druids and Rangers be spontaneous as well, sharing it between all divine casters? Or should druids prepare, representing a more primitive and even arcane understanding of divine power than the more chosen nature of clerics and paladins?

I like this idea for clerics, quite a bit. I'm actually going to refer back to the Warmage again - what if they are spontaneous casters, but instead of having to learn a set number of spells, they can spontaneously cast everything on their list (which would work, given their much more limited spell list)?  Then it's not a matter of choosing spells in advance at all - they are granted, when needed, by the god.

Either way would work very well extended to paladins, IMO. If you want to make Druids and Rangers prepare instead, it makes sense - a connection with nature isn't a two-way street as it is with a connection to a god, so the Druid or Ranger is doing all of the "work" of drawing spells of it, so needs to prepare. A cleric or Paladin is gifted spells by their god, so no preparation is needed. To make the connection with the god feel more "active," another option would be to have the spontaneous casting you mentioned, but the Cleric/Paladin can change some spells with preparation every day. It would have to obviously be very few spells they could change this way, but it makes them feel more unique.

[Xeviat]

Spontaneous casting from a small list might be enough uniqueness to make them play a little differently than the Wizard. The wizard's play style is a game of assumptions and research to decide what is best to prepare for the next day. A cleric doesn't have to do that. The cleric then gains their other Channel Divinity powers to make up for this lack of versatility. It's definitely something worth thinking on. The sorcerer did play differently from the wizard, after all. It might be enough.

I'm still thinking on it. Today, though, I came up with a nifty idea for Druids. If I were to have all divine casters be spontaneous, then Clerics would gain their spells from their domain choices (and some universal, maybe even general alignment-based spells even). Druids, on the other hand, could have their spells organized into spheres of terrain and season. Just being in a new terrain or a new season alters their spell selection. No need to have a rock climbing spell if you aren't in the mountains (or underground). You can't cast entangle in the desert because there's simply too few plants. This was just a brief conceptual idea, and I'm not considering using it for this (though maybe for another project).

I'm trying to get the Bard to work as 0-6, but I might have to drop them down to 0-4 to make them work.

[Humabout]

The way I roll with divine magic is extremely freeform. In d20 terms, it boils down to a heavily GM-adjudicated system of asking for miracles combined with a bunch of class features chosen based on how often your god listens to you (not necessarily how often he grants them). I provide lots of benchmarks for miracles to help guide how things will be adjudicated.

[Xeviat]

I'm still putting thought into this. I'm not sure I'm liking the spontaneous vs. prepared difference, as I think I'd like to have the opportunity to build spontaneous and prepared build options within each class. It's still a possible avenue. Wizards having intense versatility and clerics being more focused is a difference, but I'm not sure it's a difference in play style.

I keep looking to Channel Divinity for inspiration. The only thing that keeps coming of that is the idea of psudo-multiclassing: Clerics of war are a little like fighters, clerics of magic are a little like wizards, and clerics of trickery are a little like rogues.

Everyone has offered some great suggestions. Unfortunately, many of them go beyond the scope of D&D house rules, and this project is supposed to be D&D modifications. In the past, D&D has differentiated Wizards and Clerics by their different spell selections, and partially by clerics having more buffs (especially self-buffs) and the wizards having more direct spells. There might be a way to make that work, so long as the cleric could still be any of the four traditional roles (an important part of this build attempt). There's going to be overlap, so that's why I think searching for a way to make them cast differently is the best thing, and that just keeps bringing me back to spontaneous casting vs. preparation.

The problem is that I can justify preparation based clerics and spontaneous clerics, just like I can do the same with wizards (especially if I'm going to change the way Sorcerers work).

[Ghostman]

Maybe you could try to create differences in the actual method of spellcasting? The requirements of material, verbal and somatic components and items of focus could be a starting point for that. For example, you could rule that arcane spellcasters have to use a staff or a wand or a ring or a similar device to work their magic. Or perhaps instead of storing spells in your memory you inscribe them all on a special scroll, and to cast one you read it from the scroll (which magically erases the spell from the paper). Divine spellcasting could be an actual act of praying and impossible to do without speaking the prayer aloud.