Who Will Save Us Now? Discussion and Interest Thread

[Rhamnousia]

Unrelated question, but why do the Furies have two Super Jets, a Lab, and an Advanced Training Room?

[Steerpike]

why do the Furies have two Super Jets, a Lab, and an Advanced Training Room?

To create your base, pick a location. It can be in or near or far from any city in the real world as well as any fictional city you want to dream up. The base starts as a surface base with: a Super-Jets, A Media Monitoring Station, Contact (Local Law Enforcment) and Contact (Media), and Basic Security System. After that initial loadout, you can chose from 2 of the below customization options. Some of these customization options do not directly impact your base, but will impact the team in some way or another. Base customization options are less "crunchy" than those impacting character, to create less risk of "optimization" for your characters.

My customization options were a lab and an advanced training room.

However I think my jet number was off, I could swear it was 2 jets at one point. I'll correct this, thanks.

[sparkletwist]

you can talk with another group and share information, link your computer networks so you automatically share--that way you have an in-game reason to be able to read certain people's posts and not others.

My point wasn't about in-game reasons at all, though, but rather it was about reading the posts out of character vs. not doing that. My point was simply that if people don't metagame-- and people around here are generally pretty good about that-- it doesn't matter if the posts aren't secret. It's not like we can enforce secrecy anyway, so why not just let everyone read as much as possible so we can all enjoy the story we're building together?

[Steerpike]

Sometimes it's very hard not to unconsciously metagame. If I absolutely know that someone is lying to me or setting a trap for me or betraying me it's difficult to make a totally unbiased choice. It's kind of hard to genuinely deceive someone when they can see that you're lying. It changes the decision from being "do I trust this character and their motives" to "would my character trust this character and their motives?" The former is an exercise in strategic thinking and judgment, the latter just a reflection of how you view your character's judgment. Personally I prefer the former when playing roleplaying games. Strategic thinking and judgment are an important part of the experience, for me; it's not just a storytelling exercise.

Narratively speaking, though, not knowing things also increases a sense of identification with characters. If I only know the things my character knows I can more ably roleplay that character. This is the difference, to me, between roleplaying a character and telling a story about a character. Additionally, having and keeping secrets can be fun, as can manipulating and deceiving other people's characters. And I'll say again that suspense, the unknown, and the possibility of surprise/twists are a vital part of storytelling. Xathan might still have twists planned for us but essentially - it could be argued - leaving all the twists up to the narrator actually disempowers players. If we're co-storytellers collaboratively creating a narrative, shouldn't we have the chance to surprise one another? Even to create dramatic irony among ourselves - so that some players are "in" on a plan and others not? Sure, I might be "surprised" by the contents of certain orders as I read them, but reading orders and secret messages etc is more like reading someone's plans for a twist rather than experiencing the vertiginous jolt of the twist itself.

Reading orders and other hidden information only after a turn has passed would hugely mitigate metagame issues and help to preserve suspsense, secrecy, and identification. At the very least I think all orders should be finalized and locked-in before additional ooc reading is done. If people genuinely and sincerely don't want to metagame, then deferring the extra reading shouldn't affect what they do and say anyway. It's just changing the order in which information is received and decisions made.

[sparkletwist]

Reading orders and other hidden information only after a turn has passed

I don't particularly agree with most of what you've said, but I don't have a problem with this. Xathan, can this be the official policy?

As for the rest of it, it's pretty off-topic so I made a new thread.

[LD]

Xathan-

For the lab, I currently have it at Scientific pursuits because I do not understand what Forensic focus will help with. It seems that forensic may help with figuring out how a crime is done or to identify a 'real villain'... but is it balanced with the other two options for Base: Laboratory?

Also-

Are my orders generally correct? Even though turns are 2 weeks in real time, they are 1 week in game time? Would it make sense to have 2 weeks game time and allow us to do 2 things per person? Possibly this may make research more complex, but we could write in "if research succeeds do X" or "if research fails or succeeds, still do X"

[Xathan]

However I think my jet number was off, I could swear it was 2 jets at one point. I'll correct this, thanks.

It was in the initial post, got dropped down at some point after. Sorry for the confusion!

Reading orders and other hidden information only after a turn has passed

I don't particularly agree with most of what you've said, but I don't have a problem with this. Xathan, can this be the official policy?

I like this better than everything in the open, and I'll defer to the overall group on this, but I'd rather not. However, my concerns are not actually about metagaming.

Right now, there are a number of storylines I have in mind that only really work with the current set up. I'll give an example of one I won't be using (since I'm explaining it here, and it was my least favorite of the bunch): At some point, people were going to have a member of their team replaced with a shapeshifter. I'd be trusting the individual player not to metagame that, of course. After a bit of time with the shapeshifter, one of the teams would discover they had a shapeshifter on their team - and a missing member, who would have required some backup to help break free. When backup was called in, the shapeshifter on the backup team would have realized their cover could be blown at any moment and would have attempted to alert the other shapeshifters and it would have become a giant mess of in-character paranoia as the shapeshifters banded together to try and take down the heroes before they got caught, which would have lead to a major conflict and then, after they are defeated, the teams now have to go rescue their captive teammates etc.

However, if people are reading people's orders and know there are other shapeshifters, the story becomes boring. The tension of "I have a shapeshifter on my team, does anyone else? I hope I find out in character soon so I can alert the others of the possibility" becomes "Oh, we all have shapeshifters, there must be a big thing planned," which completely ruins any tension out of character, even if in character tension is maintained. It's not a problem of metagaming - it's a problem of the players not being surprised by twists like that. I love, in stories and gaming, those "oh, holy shit, did not see that coming" moments, and those become impossible for anything that isn't just completely out of nowhere, which has no buildup, or relies on me giving players deliberately incomplete information/outright lying to them, which is dull or frustrating, respectively.

However, I will defer to the will of the group. I can replan and cut out those possibilities if general consensus is that people would prefer to be able to read orders after the turn has passed.

Xathan-

For the lab, I currently have it at Scientific pursuits because I do not understand what Forensic focus will help with. It seems that forensic may help with figuring out how a crime is done or to identify a 'real villain'... but is it balanced with the other two options for Base: Laboratory?

Forensic is also the skill used to track a criminal's movements, tap a phone line, trace a cellphone, get financial records, interpret clues, and get the stats for villains that do not get their powers from high tech gear or magic. I was actually worried initially it would be more useful than Science or Occult.

Are my orders generally correct? Even though turns are 2 weeks in real time, they are 1 week in game time? Would it make sense to have 2 weeks game time and allow us to do 2 things per person? Possibly this may make research more complex, but we could write in "if research succeeds do X" or "if research fails or succeeds, still do X"

Yes, they are, although when doing research you should specify which skill you're using, since they reveal slightly different information. If it's ever not specified, I'll go with the highest of your skills. You are correct that 2 weeks out of game equals one week in game. The 2 weeks game time and allowing 2 things per person would make sense, but you actually touched on one of the reasons I don't want to allow 2 actions per person: it creates much more crazy if/then scenarios, which would be a headache for me. The other reason for the 1 action per character is that helps limit the amount of work I'll have to do on a given turn to keep things rolling - I'm not the fastest writer, and I don't want us to have super-long downtime between turns if it can be avoided.

[Steerpike]

I can replan and cut out those possibilities if general consensus is that people would prefer to be able to read orders after the turn has passed.

Even though I raised the "read after a turn" possibility I wouldn't say I'm advocating it. I just put it out there as a middle ground between "read everything at anytime" and "do not read hidden text." I'm happy to keep not-reading hidden text if that's what you would prefer.

I can completely see what you mean about twists and tension. There were things in Underdeep like this. I think at one point someone found the key to the door to Hell in the lower corner of the Lowerdeep, for example. No one else knew about it except that player. If time had passed it might have become a big deal but the possibility of keeping it secret was important. Of course, Underdeep was a totally different sort of game anyway, but I think it'd be harder to do twists and surprises when everyone is reading everything.

[sparkletwist]

Well, everyone knows my vote. :grin:

Admittedly, I'm just not a big fan of surprise plot twists most of the time in RPGs. There's a fine line between "oh, I did not see that coming!" and "that was completely unfair," and crossing it tends to ruin a game pretty fast.

[LD]

Steerpike and Hippopotamus Dundee-

In case this is a better place to note it; Letters have been sent to both of you in-game.

------------
Xathan

>>I can replan and cut out those possibilities if general consensus is that people would prefer to be able to read orders after the turn has passed.

I am fine either way.

That said, I am glad the plotline you suggest was cut- having a possession case so early before getting a few turns with characters would be annoying. Also, to echo Sparkletwist, I cannot think of a huge surprise that takes a character out of play to ever have been fun for the player. That said- here we have 4+ characters apiece, so that consideration does not weigh highly against such a course of action.

"Oh, we all have shapeshifters, there must be a big thing planned," which completely ruins any tension out of character, even if in character tension is maintained.

I do not see it that way. That would not change anything for me. I would be equally suspicious either way. In a game of this nature that takes place over multiple months/years surprise does not matter that much because I am not constantly thinking about the game with enough detail for a surprise to affect me as a surprise should otherwise effect a person. It would be more of an "ok, so what?" reaction, since I will likely have forgotten most of the details/nuances what has already happened.

Ultimately- the pace of the game means that things are not going to be surprising for me since I am not involved enough/invested to be surprised- I may *care*, but I am not going to be excited by something that comes out of left field because I will probably mark it down to not remembering something that happened a month ago rather than as a plot twist.

[Xathan]

Even though I raised the "read after a turn" possibility I wouldn't say I'm advocating it. I just put it out there as a middle ground between "read everything at anytime" and "do not read hidden text." I'm happy to keep not-reading hidden text if that's what you would prefer.

Gotcha. Just to clarify, do you have a preference? Right now opinion seems to waver between with "I'm fine with either way" and "I'm strongly in favor of people being able to read hidden text", with no strong preference towards "I want hidden text to stay spoilered"

I can completely see what you mean about twists and tension. There were things in Underdeep like this. I think at one point someone found the key to the door to Hell in the lower corner of the Lowerdeep, for example. No one else knew about it except that player. If time had passed it might have become a big deal but the possibility of keeping it secret was important. Of course, Underdeep was a totally different sort of game anyway, but I think it'd be harder to do twists and surprises when everyone is reading everything.

Man, that could have been crazy! I can see how that secret would have been important - I still want to know what would have happened if that portal had been opened, but also don't want you to tell me, on the off chance you ever do decide to do a limited run of Underdeep again. :P

I'm thinking that, even if we do decide that people can read what's in messages and orders, people's briefings will remain secret. That will allow some twists and turns because people can, for example, take those missions that provide massive rewards while increasing the Doom Counter without having people know that's what they're doing, and things in mission text that lead up to big reveals won't be uncovered immediately.

Well, everyone knows my vote. :grin:

Admittedly, I'm just not a big fan of surprise plot twists most of the time in RPGs. There's a fine line between "oh, I did not see that coming!" and "that was completely unfair," and crossing it tends to ruin a game pretty fast.

Guess that's a difference. I love surprise plot twists in RPGs as a player and a DM. One of my favorite stories I've ever played in was when the GM had us aiding an ally against a major villain. Numerous plots involved this villain wrecking shit and taking this ally's advice on how to deal with said villain. At the climax, it was revealed that they were the same person the entire time, and we were being played. It was awesome, it was shocking, it was fun...and it would have been nowhere near as exciting if I had seen it coming.

Different strokes, that's all.

>>I can replan and cut out those possibilities if general consensus is that people would prefer to be able to read orders after the turn has passed.

I am fine either way.

Thanks for your vote. :)

That said, I am glad the plotline you suggest was cut- having a possession case so early before getting a few turns with characters would be annoying. Also, to echo Sparkletwist, I cannot think of a huge surprise that takes a character out of play to ever have been fun for the player. That said- here we have 4+ characters apiece, so that consideration does not weigh highly against such a course of action.

FYI, if I was still doing the shapeshifting storyline, it would have been quite a ways in the future. This soon would have been dumb, I agree.

And one thing I wanted to clarify - if, in the course of the game, one or more of your characters gets mind controlled or possessed or something and the rest of the team isn't supposed to know about it, you as a player will know and still control the mind-controlled person. More often, though, a mind control or possession or similar will the be the result of a capture scenario.

I do not see it that way. That would not change anything for me. I would be equally suspicious either way. In a game of this nature that takes place over multiple months/years surprise does not matter that much because I am not constantly thinking about the game with enough detail for a surprise to affect me as a surprise should otherwise effect a person. It would be more of an "ok, so what?" reaction, since I will likely have forgotten most of the details/nuances what has already happened.

Ultimately- the pace of the game means that things are not going to be surprising for me since I am not involved enough/invested to be surprised- I may *care*, but I am not going to be excited by something that comes out of left field because I will probably mark it down to not remembering something that happened a month ago rather than as a plot twist.

Good to know you'd feel that way about it. I kinda feel like that would happen with any RPG, not just one in this format, but maybe that's what you're saying and I misunderstood. :P

[Steerpike]

Gotcha. Just to clarify, do you have a preference? Right now opinion seems to waver between with "I'm fine with either way" and "I'm strongly in favor of people being able to read hidden text", with no strong preference towards "I want hidden text to stay spoilered"

My preference is essentially not independent of your preference. I think you should run the kind of game you want to run and the choice should be up to you. If keeping text hidden lets you narrate the way you want to narrate and construct situations the way you want to construct them that's what you should do, as far as I'm concerned. My vote is for dictatorship, I guess  :P.

But then again I'm 100% OK with stuff like getting my characters replaced by shapeshifters. I like plot twists and surprises and I don't like spoilers. I'm a bit of a masochist as a player. I like it when my characters get mutilated, get horribly transformed, cursed, placed in unfair situations, chased by things too powerful for me to take on, etc, but I don't want to be complicit or in-the-know with that stuff (then I'd be a sadist helping to do things to a character). I want it to be stuff I'm trying to avoid. Some players are pissed when they wake up naked in a dungeon cell without their precious items and like a thousand monsters between them and freedom. I love that. There's a reason Outlast is one of my favourite games (that video is probably NSFW in most environments). This probably has a lot to do with being a horror fan generally...

I can see how that secret would have been important - I still want to know what would have happened if that portal had been opened, but also don't want you to tell me, on the off chance you ever do decide to do a limited run of Underdeep again.

Looking back, sparkletwist actually knew about it too, but it made sense IC for her to since her characters were demons.

If I was ever to do a run of Underdeep I'd do new maps, so I don't think it's spoiling anything, so if you want to read:

[spoiler]The door would have revealed a new map (The Abyss) full of creatures from a Demon army list I had written up, who'd have invaded the Lowerdeep and made their way upwards. They were a very nasty faction whose currency was Souls. Everyone in the Lowerdeep would have had to start gathering allies fast, doing Faustian bargains with the invaders, or else fleeing the lower caverns.[/spoiler]
Incidentally if I ever attempted to run it again I think I'd limit it to like 3 races, probably Dwarves, Dark Elves, Goblins, and give more customization options for tribes and stuff, keep all the other races as NPCs and monster-races. And limit the players to maybe 3 or 4 max.

[Xathan]

My preference is essentially not independent of your preference. I think you should run the kind of game you want to run and the choice should be up to you. If keeping text hidden lets you narrate the way you want to narrate and construct situations the way you want to construct them that's what you should do, as far as I'm concerned. My vote is for dictatorship, I guess  :P.

Wooo dictatorship!

At this point, I am leaning towards a compromise: messages and orders can be read after they are finalized for that week, while briefings are off limits. Allows me to preserve some suspense and gives the option for the increase-doom counter missions, but still makes information freer.

But then again I'm 100% OK with stuff like getting my characters replaced by shapeshifters. I like plot twists and surprises and I don't like spoilers. I'm a bit of a masochist as a player. I like it when my characters get mutilated, get horribly transformed, cursed, placed in unfair situations, chased by things too powerful for me to take on, etc, but I don't want to be complicit or in-the-know with that stuff (then I'd be a sadist helping to do things to a character). I want it to be stuff I'm trying to avoid. Some players are pissed when they wake up naked in a dungeon cell without their precious items and like a thousand monsters between them and freedom. I love that. There's a reason Outlast is one of my favourite games (that video is probably NSFW in most environments). This probably has a lot to do with being a horror fan generally...

I love that kind of stuff, too, so it really is a matter of taste. :D Both characters I've played in FATE games have taken an extreme consequence, so I had guy loose an arm and another loose an eye, and I was so eager to take that consequence that, in hindsight, I probably would have had other options if I had thought a bit longer a bout it (or just allowed myself to be taken out and let my allies finish the fight.) BTW, if you're a fan of aweful things happening to your characters, you really should give Darkest Dungeon a look over - it's right up your alley.

Looking back, sparkletwist actually knew about it too, but it made sense IC for her to since her characters were demons.

If I was ever to do a run of Underdeep I'd do new maps, so I don't think it's spoiling anything, so if you want to read:

[spoiler]The door would have revealed a new map (The Abyss) full of creatures from a Demon army list I had written up, who'd have invaded the Lowerdeep and made their way upwards. They were a very nasty faction whose currency was Souls. Everyone in the Lowerdeep would have had to start gathering allies fast, doing Faustian bargains with the invaders, or else fleeing the lower caverns.[/spoiler]

Oooh, nice! (Since it would be a different map, i read it.) That would have been awesome.

Incidentally if I ever attempted to run it again I think I'd limit it to like 3 races, probably Dwarves, Dark Elves, Goblins, and give more customization options for tribes and stuff, keep all the other races as NPCs and monster-races. And limit the players to maybe 3 or 4 max.

Aww, won't get to reprise Llitul and the Derro. Still, can I reserve a spot in this thing that may never actually happen? ;) I do like the idea behind the tribes customization thing - then again, as you can probably tell from how I set up this game, I'm a big fan of tons of customization options, seeing as I named a core mechanic "customization options."

[sparkletwist]

I love surprise plot twists in RPGs as a player and a DM. One of my favorite stories I've ever played in was when the GM had us aiding an ally against a major villain. Numerous plots involved this villain wrecking shit and taking this ally's advice on how to deal with said villain. At the climax, it was revealed that they were the same person the entire time, and we were being played.

Well, I said most of the time, and the reason is because of that fine line. For me, personally, I could honestly see that situation playing out in an awesome way, but I could also rather easily see it feeling frustrating and unfair. It depends on how well it was set up, I think. I'll also say that I'm slightly odd in that it doesn't really diminish my enjoyment any to have some vague idea of what's coming next-- but, then again, my style of play does tend more towards being "in on it." For example...

Some players are pissed when they wake up naked in a dungeon cell without their precious items and like a thousand monsters between them and freedom. I love that.

I actually like this kind of stuff, too... but only if I've been forewarned. I don't really think of myself as a sadist simply because I prefer to be asked for my OOC consent before nasty things happen to my character, though. I just think that I've got a stronger stance on player empowerment than you, and, to be honest, part of it is that I'm a bit squeamish.

Both characters I've played in FATE games have taken an extreme consequence, so I had guy loose an arm and another loose an eye, and I was so eager to take that consequence that, in hindsight, I probably would have had other options if I had thought a bit longer a bout it (or just allowed myself to be taken out and let my allies finish the fight

Was the guy who lost an arm Gideon from the Sixsura game? Or is that another character who lost an arm? :grin:

[Xathan]

Well, I said most of the time, and the reason is because of that fine line. For me, personally, I could honestly see that situation playing out in an awesome way, but I could also rather easily see it feeling frustrating and unfair. It depends on how well it was set up, I think. I'll also say that I'm slightly odd in that it doesn't really diminish my enjoyment any to have some vague idea of what's coming next-- but, then again, my style of play does tend more towards being "in on it." For example...

I guess it does really depend on the way it's handled. For me it's about fairness: If I, as a player, had a fair chance of figuring it out on my own (though context clues, dice rolls, or other factors I had control over) it almost never annoys me (well, the twist itself doesn't. If I missed the clues, I'll be annoyed at myself.) If I didn't get a fair chance, though, it feels like an ass pull and annoys me. So...I guess we're in similar boats, just probably have different fairness threshholds? :P

I actually like this kind of stuff, too... but only if I've been forewarned. I don't really think of myself as a sadist simply because I prefer to be asked for my OOC consent before nasty things happen to my character, though. I just think that I've got a stronger stance on player empowerment than you, and, to be honest, part of it is that I'm a bit squeamish.

And that's a really important thing, I think, for any DM: Being aware of a player's limits. For example, if I was running a one-on-one for Steerpike, I now know I can do all kinds of aweful things to his character and he'll love it. On the other hand, if running for you, I'd have to dial back my sadistic tendencies (or at least discuss them with you) to avoid making you uncomfortable or ruining the fun. Both methods are perfectly viable, and there's no better or worse here, but it's just interesting to know.

Was the guy who lost an arm Gideon from the Sixsura game? Or is that another character who lost an arm? :grin:

Actually, no. I had forgotten he had both arms as of Sixsura! So yeah, that means two characters have lost arms, one has lost an eye. (The second one to loose an arm is in a space opera and getting a flexibile cybernetic replacement...oh, I'm accidentally playing Gideon again)