Discussion: Pantheon

[Xeviat]

PHB
Air: Air Elemental, Roc
Animal: Various, perhaps repesentatives of each dire animal.
Chaos: Red Dragon
Death: Vulture or Raven
Destruction: Kraken (for the sea religion), Tarasque (definately meets the requirements for a totem god)
Earth: Earth Elemental, Bulette
Evil: Black Dragon
Fire: Fire Elemental, Salamander (not the outsider, but the amphibian)
Good: Gold Dragon
Healing: Dove
Knowledge: Owl
Law: Silver Dragon
Luck: Fox
Magic:
Plant: Treant
Protection:
Strength: Gorilla
Sun: Phoenix
Travel: Horse
Trickery: Jackle
War: Boar, Goat
Water: Water Elemental, Kraken

XPH
Mind: Octopus (hahahaha)

D&DG
Artifice: Iron Golem
Charm: Peacock?
Community:
Creation:
Darkness:
Glory:
Liberation:
Madness (use CD revision for domain ability though):
Nobility:
Repose:
Rune:
Scalykind:
Weather:

I'm posting my ideas of some deities. I definately think we could easily have multiple deities for each domain, because there may be some overlap between different religions. For instance, the religion of the sea might have an overlord Water elemental (or perhaps there is a water elemental for each ocean?), a kraken which embodies the destructive elements of water, some animal to represent the stormy weather of the ocean, and an island backed turtle to represent the life giving aspects of the sea.

I definately think that the deities themselves don't have to be godzilla (or gojira as my instructer would make me say) size, at least not all of them. I think they should definately be at least one size larger than the common representative, and for animals that would be one size larger than the dire representative. I'm thinking of the gods in Princess Mononoke; dire animals would serve the deity directly, while the deity would be bigger than the dires.

Mostly animals, though, only the greatest deities wouldn't be true animals.

[Soup Nazi]

Great stuff Xev. This was exactly what I had in mind initially. Big mythical creatures that were living icons of certain domains. I'm not sure divine rank is even really needed, but it would serve to bring the animal based totem gods along par with the things like dragons and elementals.

With this single domain structure we wouldn't need multiple churches either, because as you already mentioned a clerics choice of domains will clearly indicate the Totems he worships most prominantly. We'd have dragon/salamnder clerics and goat/elemental clerics. Seems to really embrace the Totem concept and run with it, in my not so humble opinion. Nice stuff.

-Nasty-

[Captain Obvious]

so, i'm jumping into this thread a bit late but this all does look great. i am personally a fan of the god's being giant versions of monsters that are more akin to natural disasters (think hawaiians worshipping those volcanoes). theoretically the gods could be killed but they are so powerful that most people wouldn't stand a chance.

i don't see any real reason to give them divine ranks, since that seems to better fit gods who are concious of their worshippers and especially creator gods, whereas the totem monsters didn't make the world (but maybe they got there first). as a way to boost even little animals to that needed level of power without resorting to divine ranks, i suggest we use the Kaiju temlate (which is built for making stuff into godzilla-style monsters). it doesn't exist in any book, but it was printed in a dragon magazine a while back. (if you guys decide it sounds useful, i could post it up here).

basically what it does is makes the creature collossal, adds a bunch of hit dice, incrases the stat-line appropriately, and then give them a few funky powers.

or for the ones that we don't want as big, just advance them one size bigger and add the paragon template and add flavour to taste.

for other totems:
-a shadow ("the primordial darkness")
-magic should be a snake (maybe a cobra)
-murder: a big spiky centipede

[Soup Nazi]

That template sounds great for this

[brainface]

i don't see any real reason to give them divine ranks

yeah... divine ranks isn't a template (so it has no defined CR increase), gives a bunch of arbitrary abilities, and is really a hastle that doesn't seem worth it just so you can stamp something 'a god'.

[Ishmayl-Retired]

Everyone who's into this colassal creature totem idea should check out some screen shots of hte PS2 game, "Shadows of the Colossus."  Probaly exactly what you're looking for.

[Ishmayl-Retired]

Still brainstorming here, what about something a little crazy:

Howabout a progenitor race, from eons ago, that actually created monstrous versions of creatures they knew to be alive.  Maybe this ancient race knew the machinations of clockworks and gears, and was able to create what would essentially be called robots.  Large constructs of iron, brass, gears, lubricants, and various weapons that could be activated with the right power source.  There would be a clockwork version of a roc, but even larger than an actual roc.  Anyway, the progenitor race died away, and then several millenia later, some foolish humans (who else?) stumbled upon one of these constructs.  When accidentally activating it, it activated all of them (possibly at least a dozen, possibly many, many more), and lead to what sages and lorekeepers call some generic hostile time in the past (such as "The Year of Flame," or "The Nine Days of the Shaken Pillars of the Earth," or something along those lines).  The constructs were eventually allowed to sleep again, and were hidden by the people who found them, to be worshipped as gods.  Thus, maybe only 10 of them survived, so there are ten very large, and very distinct cultures out there who worship these constructs as gods, and literally draw power from them (possibly from the power source within the constructs).  Thus, they would see the natural versions of the represented creature to be avatars of their "god."  If a real roc flew overhead - or lived nearby - the culture who worshipped the construct roc, they would view it as either a terrible omen, or a special blessing.  The roc would be a religious symbol.

Anyway, that's just brainfarting because I'm still too lazy this early to get out and do the work on my truck that I have to do today.  I'm in love with this concept, and if we don't use it here, it's going to find some implementation in Shadowfell.

Cheers!

[Numinous]

Alright, I have been struck by inspiration, so bear with me as I ramble to get this all written out.  

I have no problem with the totem gods, as they have come to be called.  However, I feel that as this is a community setting, we could be trapping ourselves in one idea too soon in the process.  What I suggest is that one culture worships, respects, and recognizes the totem gods as their religion.  However, perhaps another nation, such as the big tyranny which has been discussed, has another religion, a group of deities which holds the totem gods at bay, perhaps with smaller numbers but greater individual power.  These gods could be similar to tha standard D&D deities, or they could not.  But they all maintain sole influence in their domain, and the faith of their worshippers gives them the power necessary to protect the populace from the "fiends beyond the sea".  Neither side should necessarily be evil, but they are in conflict, perhaps an unsolvable conflict that is untouchable by the PC's.  The gods are in a stalemate, and this greatly affects the world their conflict is in.

Wow, that was a lot, if it is necessary for me to clarify later, I will.  but I'm feeling kinda burnt out now...

[daggerhart]

ok guys, im going to make a stab at an idea i had last night.   Since some of you don't want totem gods, I thought of having both.  

Here i've stolen the greek myth, and replaced the names (and a few events) to see if it can fit our setting.

In the beginning, Uhn, an amorphous, gaping void encompassing the entire universe, was surrounded by an unending sea of water, which itself was the domain of a goddess named Materna.

She was the Goddess of All Things, and desired to make order out of the Uhn. By coupling with the North Wind, she gave birth to Ahlos, god of Love, also known as the "firstborn".

Materna separated the sky from the sea by dancing on the waves of the sea. In this manner, she created great lands upon which she might wander, a veritable universe, populating it with exotic creatures, and countless beasts and monsters.

Also born out of Uhn were Gaea, called Mother Earth, and Turanos, the embodiment of the Sky and the Heavens, as well as Utanuri, god of the sunless and terrible region beneath Gaea, the Earth.

Gaea and Turanos married and gave birth to the Totems, a race of formidable giants, which actively roam the lands, and  the Estines, a race of amorphus beings that resemble the essence of Uhn.  

In what has become one of the recurrent themes of mythology, Gaea and Turanos warned Uhn that a son of his would one day overpower him.  Uhn therefore imprisoned his numerous children within the void, to keep that forecast from taking place.

This angered Gaea greatly, so when the youngest son, Bob (an amorphic), was born, Gaea blessed him with the means to free all of Uhn's children, and raised Bob in a secret corner of the universe.  

In due course, Bob grew up, came homeward, and into immediate conflict with the tyrant Uhn, who did not know that this newcomer was his own son. Bob needed his brothers and sisters help in slaying the tyrant, so with the blessing of Gaea, he located and rescued his siblings from imprisonment in the great void. Together they went to battle against their father. The results were that all of his children, led by Bob, vanquished Uhn forever.      

In a final act of retribution, Uhn cursed his children by tying their survival with that  of Gaea.   So without the worship and respect of the inhabitants of the world, they will eventually lose all their  own powers, and return to the void.

The goal i was going for in this, were that there are both totem gods as well as amorphous one, and they are siblings ( relatively equal in power.   its likey that some totems may be more powerful than some amorphous, and vice versa ).

I thought that maybe the Amorphous gods actually have trouble retaining a solid form on earth, while the totem gods are stuck in their bodies.

This could give us an incredibly diverse pantheon.

[Numinous]

Interesting...  I myself have never been to fond of the pantheons where the world isn't perfectly symmetric and organized, but that's just me.  I kinda see the amorphous becoming animistic in nature, but oh well.  These are just my opinions though, so only give them as much weight as that warrants...

[daggerhart]

Everyone who's into this colassal creature totem idea should check out some screen shots of hte PS2 game, "Shadows of the Colossus."  Probaly exactly what you're looking for.

ehh..   thats kind of the idea,  but personally i was thinking more of like 'shining force'.  

in my mind, the totem gods don't walk around and ruin shit all the time,   in fact they very rarely do.

chances are they are very similar to dragons, in that they like spending centuries sleeping.

[Xeviat]

I still don't think all of the totems should be collosal. I also see nothing wrong with sticking with the first idea, but perhaps you're right Nate. Maybe we should generate 4 more ideas, or perhaps four directions for the totems, and have a vote on it.

[Numinous]

Well, counting Daggerhart's and mine, that's two more ideas for how the totems could be done.

[brainface]

could we do where like, cities (the city-forts?) worship 'regular' gods, or maybe just 'concept-gods', while those in the wilderness and more uncivilized places worship the totems? some more uncivilized cities may have cults or outright churches to the totems. make it kinda a law vs. chaos thing? (with the totems def. more chaotic).

The worship of 'concept-gods' would generally give a place more order and structure, with an emphesis on ritual, holidays, whatever; while the totem gods would be better at warfare, changing the weather, various more visible and violent acts. also, you could point to a totem god, whereas a 'concept god' would require more faith?

[Numinous]

Brainface, I guess that's what I was saying.  Are wes till doing the city-forts thing though?  I say we do concept gods for the "empire", and totems for the city-states.  Maybe tone back the destructive aspects of the totems a bit so they don't blow up their own culture...