Kishar

[Raelifin]

Hmmm... I'm not sure how to say this, but Kishar looks fairly schizophrenic to me. On one hand you have some TRoS, low-fantasy, "chop up the guards" earthly variant, and on the other you have page after page about aeons, demons, spaceships and titans.

Are there dragons?
Are dragons, sorcerers, giant jewels and continents rising from the depths low fantasy?
How much does the story of Ahriman, Proteus and Theletus impact the focus of the world? Ever?
Who is "Logan," how did he "slay" Omega, and why isn't this talked about in greater detail?

It seems like while you try to craft a setting about men, you write about gods. Are gods the center or focus of the world?

I don't want to tell you what to do, so I'll just quickly mention a personal take. If I were in the same spot, I'd either work to move the setting back to its roots and de-emphasize the supernatural or I'd cut out the old ties to a mundane-ish world and kick the divine struggle into full-focus. In a DivSet world you'd want both, but they conflict greatly, detracting, in my eyes, from the flavor of the setting. I see Kishar as highly ethocentric (ConSet/BlindSet), but with two conflicting centers. For best results, downplay one or the other. ;)


Sorry if that's a bit harsh, but I'm trying to give honest feedback. Great work on the maps, website and divine detail though! Top notch!
 -Rael

[Matt Larkin (author)]

I appreciate the review, Rael.

Hmmm... I'm not sure how to say this, but Kishar looks fairly schizophrenic to me. On one hand you have some TRoS, low-fantasy, "chop up the guards" earthly variant, and on the other you have page after page about aeons, demons, spaceships and titans.

reality[/i] of the world, which was a much grander tale that combined elements of mythologies with science fiction (in a sense, a mythology that to into account modern conceptions like the Big Bang and Chaos Theory).

We see a similar dichomoty between the fantastic ancient past (battles of cosmic beings and whatnot, as found in myths of most western cultures), and the modern world where such things are nearly gone.

More on my reasons in a moment.

Are there dragons?
Are dragons, sorcerers, giant jewels and continents rising from the depths low fantasy?

How much does the story of Ahriman, Proteus and Theletus impact the focus of the world? Ever?[/quote]Who is "Logan," how did he "slay" Omega, and why isn't this talked about in greater detail?[/quote]It seems like while you try to craft a setting about men, you write about gods. Are gods the center or focus of the world?[/quote]I don't want to tell you what to do, so I'll just quickly mention a personal take. If I were in the same spot, I'd either work to move the setting back to its roots and de-emphasize the supernatural or I'd cut out the old ties to a mundane-ish world and kick the divine struggle into full-focus. In a DivSet world you'd want both, but they conflict greatly, detracting, in my eyes, from the flavor of the setting. I see Kishar as highly ethocentric (ConSet/BlindSet), but with two conflicting centers. For best results, downplay one or the other. ;)[/quote]
It is definitely driven by a central vision (though disentangling the vision of the setting from the vision of the epic story I am telling in it is tough), so yeah ethocentric all the way (I guess ConSet, probably).  I suppose part of the vision does involve a truly complex universe where these cosmic beings are playing with men's lives - but two important points I seem to have lost along the way:
1) It's in the background.  It affects the overall world and plot a lot, but it is not the main focus.
2) People don't know about it.  Main characters in stories might discover part of the truth (hence why I needed to record and figure out what that truth was), but it's never really something men will understand.


It's not harsh; it's constructive.  I would rather hear about a weakness and fix it or consciously decided to disagree, than go ahead and never know.  Thanks very much for your insight. I will get to working on your points over the next few weeks.

If you have suggestions for drawing to focus back to human society, without my having to lose the background mythology, I'd be interested to hear that, too.

Oh, and thanks for the compliments on the site and the maps.

[Raelifin]

Yay! My fears of another "seraph incident" are banished.

I can totally understand the want of a deep history to not only the world, but the entire universe. This is certainly possible while keeping a focus on the mundane. I think the easiest way is simply to tie your mythos to men (I use the term as a truncated form of "human," for all the feminists listening). The coolest way to do so, though it would certainly require some re-writing, would be to have Teletus tell the story to a mortal. In the World of Darkness book, one of the coolest fiction blurbs is from the perspective of a man telling of his childhood meeting with a god. The god explained the nature of the universe in a circle of flame, but always you see the fragility of life through the eyes of a boy, not from an objective view of a titanic war.

Shows how much I knew about the Star of Life... 6 inches! Heh.

I'll be keeping an eye on the website. Keep up the good work,
 - Rael

[Matt Larkin (author)]

The coolest way to do so, though it would certainly require some re-writing, would be to have Teletus tell the story to a mortal.

Actually, I really like this idea.  I kind of started a narrative history of Kishar (it's history, not the cosmic stuff) related by an immortal that was there (Esras's Chronicles).  I stopped the project when I decided I wanted to reexamine some of the basic conceptions of the world (things like the decision to remove orcs from the setting).

I think I want an objective truth presentation (which would not appear anywhere but here in the brainstorming stages - since part of the point behind the project is also for my benefit, as the author, of recording the way things are, so I can tell how to present them), but I could also include a narrative version.  Theletus might be an interesting teller, but he is cryptic as a way of life, so I might consider some other character, possibly.

It may be a few days before I can get any update on this field, though.  I want to mull over the idea a little.

[Matt Larkin (author)]

I actually got a little inspired and worked a bit on the cosmogony, incorporating your idea, Rael.  I thought of a character Prometheus (Theletus) might actually have told the story to (from a prior campaign), and so related it that way.  But I think in such a way it doesn't dilute the nature much.

Check it out.

I also fixed a few broken links and typos, and added a little bit to a few cast pages.  I'll look at the other issues before too long.

[Matt Larkin (author)]

I am getting ready to re-work the history of Kishar, but to do so, I need to first consider what races will populate the world.

In a way, this is part of the source of the Nature of Fantasy thread, as I am trying to consider whether I include a variety of races and still have the setting feel dark and grounded, since it is supposed to be a mytho-historical inspired setting (and there weren't lizardfolk there to the best of my knowledge).

I basically have immortal beings, called animas (spirits), which covers everything from giants, to  fae, to demons.  I have no real problem throwing stuff in the this list, 'cause it exists on the outskirts.

But for mortal races, the question becomes, can I keep the mood with all this?  The world and story is very much dominated by humanity and explores ideas such as the fate and nature of mankind.  I am torn between liking how things fit in, and wanting to focus the setting.  I can see setting up most other races as being almost monstrous, entities out in the wilderness, and thus not upsetting the feel too much.  But I'd like input on what should stay, what should go, and so forth.

Edit: I believe I have this resolved.

[spoiler=old post]For those unfamiliar with my earlier versions of Kishar, I currently have 17 mortal races.

Humanity - the focus and pretty self-explanatory

Anurans - various species of amphibians, from giant hulks, to more lithe frogmen.  I'm kind of fond of these, actually.  They're generally kind of on the fringes.

Catfolk - various subraces for all major great cats.  I found some references to cat people in some mythologies (Maori, most prominently, I believe), and I've struggled to include everything to appears mythically (one of my goals), in one form or another.

Centaurs - obviously a must from a mythology perspective.  I could make them animas, but I don't think it's really appropriate or necessary.

Dwarves - a tough one.  In Norse mythology, they would fit clearly into the anima category, being a kind of demi-god.  The original history I had (which I hope not to diverge from too much) had them as moderate players, but not major ones.

Encarans - a misnomer to call them a mortal race, since they are the lone immortal race among the mortals.  Nevertheless, they are not animas, and are, in fact, related to humans.  Also a very central race to history and the state of the world, so there's no question they are in.

Gnolls - a classic fantasy race.  I seem to recall some mythological basis for dog/hyena people, but I don't remember where.  In Kishar I was going to have them be wandering nomads in plains in Agria (similar to northern Africa), specifically Bregia.

Goblins - another obvious keep from folklore; the question, of course, is whether they should be animas, since goblin is really a more generic term for evil faerie.  I could make them Unseelie, but that makes any plotline involving a goblin army far less likely.

Insectoids - here's one I could stand losing.  Originally, I had created Kishar for a D&D campaign and was going to allow thri-kreen.  When I distanced myself from D&D and considered more seriously writing about the setting, I dropped all reference to stuff they created.  I can't remember any mythical reference to bug men, either.  They're worth keeping only if it seems worth continuing to play up the Star creating huge varieties of races.

Kobolds - Since they're in folklore, they're keepers.  Like goblins, however, they could go as fae.  In Kishar, I had originally distanced them strongly from being wicked by making them noble and even honorable members of the Eliscian Empire.  Now that feels a little too cute...I might want to keep them being enemies of goblins, though.

Lizardfolk - I think there was some reference to lizardmen in some Pacific Island myth, and maybe Australian.  I had bunches of different species, spread all over the place.  They even have the Lizard Isles named after them.  Do they belong?  I'd be loathe to drop them, they're definitely too primitive to be animas...Actually, maybe making them more primitive and war-like (ironically closer to D&D lizardfolk) might make them feel more like something out of Conan...

Lupines - wolf-men.  I don't know that there is refernce to them, but they seem to go well with certain Native American themes and fit well into the northern reaches similuating North America and Norway.  In the histories, they were very war-like, but became reclusive later.

Minotaurs - obviously from mythology.  They could be animas, but I was thinking of making them a primitive tribal society.

Nezumi - another one I could stand to lose, despite the fact they appear in a campaign.  I think I may have just seen them in OA (and Mt:G) and thought they worked well and felt mythical.  I don't know, I do have kitsune as animas, but they are from Japanese myth.

Oannes - Babylonian myth.  Fish-men.  Basically my version of sahagin (sahuagin in D&D).  I don't think having an alien, violent race beneath the sea detracts from the feel as long as they are relatively unknown and don't crop up much.

Ursians - bear men.  Yeah.  It felt cool.  Kind of like lupines, I see them as being seen by the people of Norumbega as reclusive spiritual guides, found only in the far north.  Since they are mainly found in lands where humands aren't (Shola), they're kind of a unique situation.

Vanara - Hinduism.  Definite keeper.  I don't really want to make them animas, but I might if it feels absolutely necessary.

So...Any thoughts or ramblings (considering this post was kind of me rambling to collect my thoughts) at all related would be appreciated.[/spoiler]

[Matt Larkin (author)]

While mulling over the above races issue, I decided to elaborate a little on the Outer Realm (mentioned in the Cosmogony).  Site updated with a little basic information on it.  It's basically my version of the source of Lovecraftian horrors.

[~Kalin~]

Insectoids - here's one I could stand losing.  Originally, I had created Kishar for a D&D campaign and was going to allow thri-kreen.  When I distanced myself from D&D and considered more seriously writing about the setting, I dropped all reference to stuff they created.  I can't remember any mythical reference to bug men, either.  They're worth keeping only if it seems worth continuing to play up the Star creating huge varieties of races.

I originally created my own setting to allow thri-kreen, but i quickly scrapped that idea, i just could not make them fit in seamlessly with the other races.

If you going for a more historical approach remove the thri-kreen, they arent worth keeping to just play up creation.

[Matt Larkin (author)]

Yeah, you're probably right.  Maybe it helps to hear it from someone else.  I'll cut them.

So, one down, 16 to go.

[Matt Larkin (author)]

This issue was resolved.

[Matt Larkin (author)]

Well I moved dwarves to a type of anima, getting them more in-touch with their Norse roots.

That leaves:
Humans
Anurans (amphibian people)
Canids (canine people)
Catfolk
Centaurs
Encarans
Lizardfolk
Minotaurs
Oannes
Ursians
Vanara

The only one I'm still up in the air about is ursians.  I kind of like the idea of big bear men, but I still have some reservations on this one.  Still, I think I'm ready to get to work on race descriptions.

[Matt Larkin (author)]

In thinking about some of the feedback I've gotten, particularly from Salacious Angel and Raelifin, I've decided I wanted to try to explore and maybe codify the themes I'm exploring in the setting and stories set in it.  I avoided doing so in the past, partly to have readers draw their own conclusions, and partly because the vision I had driven the setting was more complex than I think I can easily summarize.  But it may be helpful to try (ambitious as they admittedly are).

[ooc]
Themes
Fate:
History is immutable...
One of the obvious and most drastic themes I explore is that of fate.  I may need to talk about the notion in more detail later.  But the underlying idea, is a kind of determinism (perceived by those aware of it as the Chains of Fate).  The issue is most clearly seen when taking from the perspective of characters that are prescient or in some cases can even travel through time, but no matter what actions they take they cannot avoid the path ahead.

Also, there is the issue of self-damnation.  The very nature of characters in the setting is self-destructive, much as we find in Greek tragedy.  Here we find the fatalism of Norse mythology, but not the acceptance one sees there.

Importantly, it is not some conscious being running the show, but rather an infinite chains of causality (as in Determinism, or Chaos Theory applied to the entire universe).  As such, it is even more cold and unfeeling, for there is no one to appeal to or blame.

The Role of Humanity:
All souls are drawn from the same Source
Certainly the setting strives to explore the reason for human existence and meaning of life stuff.  There is a certain notion of divinity in all souls, however base they may seem.  So we see emphasis on reincarnation, connections between souls, and the question of the ultimate plan, if there is one.

Sin/Redemption:
The world is caught in sick cycles of sin and tragedy
Characters in the setting are rarely what we consider classic heroes.  They are defined both by their good qualities and their (often fatal) flaws.  They get caught in cycles of sin and tragedy, and redemption seems unattainable.  And they are forced to face not only their pasts, but to question whether they are responsible for the "sins of the fathers" and for their own actions in past lives.

Blurred Morality:
Everyone has an agenda
Along similar lines, I try hard to make sure there are few true heroes or villains.  There are people, very complex people, each with complex schemes.  Along these lines, we also see the dichotomy between perception and reality.

The Nature of the Divine:
What makes a god?
As was pointed out, however much the focus may be on humanity, there is a lot about the divine, too.  It's distant, but I try to explore how one might move from some objective truth (some historical figure, for example), to this person becoming ingrained as a divinity in the eyes of people.

I also try hard here to not make any "holy" divine beings (other than in the tautological sense of holy being divine).  These beings also have agendas, and the best of them will use and betray to achieve them.
[/ooc]

[ooc]
Tone
Appropriate to the themes, we see a dark world, were characters often feel devoid of hope.  It is gritty, deadly serious.

Whatever supernatural lies under the surface, magic is rare and feared in the world.  Gods are distant, and many doubt such beings exist.

Beneath the surface, the setting has some science-fiction elements, as well.  Though the people of the world may never see it, we see issues like the Big Bang, time travel, spaceships, aliens, and so forth.
[/ooc]

Okay, that's what comes to mind.  I'm done rambling on this subject for now.

[Matt Larkin (author)]

Well, a pretty major update to the site!

First, a slightly rewritten intro (on the homepage), which I hope evokes the tone and themes more clearly and is more compelling.

Secondly a new Races section.  Since I wanted to separate the concept of race from culture (since most races have several cultures), there's not a lot of cultural info for most of them.  I'll include cultures within the pages for those regions.  But that left me wondering what to say about several races.  I would love to hear how everyone thinks the races can be improved or elaborated on.

I updated the FAQ a little, and added a few characters from the quotations to the Cast section (instead of FAQ).

I also rewrote the Cosmogony (again); credit to Raelifin and Salacious Angel for their suggestions.

I added a new section for doppelgangers.  I also added a little more detail to the grigori, and added theme quotations to the archons, muses, and geans.

I appreciate any feedback or suggestions.

[~Kalin~]

nice intro

I have a few questions about the races and such:
How has the human race become the dominant race? what was it like before humans took over?
why has the human race left many parts of the world wild and unknown? what makes these places dangerous?

If the encarans are immortal and posses so much power that they can effect gravity, and they are so much more advanced than the human race, why is it that they do not rule the world instead of the humans?

I had more but my computer stuffed up and i lost what i was going to post, ill have another look at Kishar later when my head stops hurting

Born of the union of man and protean, doppelgangers can assume the appearance of any person. Most serve the goals of their progenitors, creating chaos by infiltrating mortal societies and undermining order and peace.

I think this is what you meant (corrections in bold), it didnt really make sense before.

[Matt Larkin (author)]

Thanks for the corrections.  I'm bad with typos, so it helps when someone catches them.  Plus it means someone is reading it, which is encouraging ;)

nice intro

I have a few questions about the races and such:
How has the human race become the dominant race? what was it like before humans took over?
why has the human race left many parts of the world wild and unknown? what makes these places dangerous?

If the encarans are immortal and posses so much power that they can effect gravity, and they are so much more advanced than the human race, why is it that they do not rule the world instead of the humans?[/quote]I had more but my computer stuffed up and i lost what i was going to post, ill have another look at Kishar later when my head stops hurtingp[/quote]
I look foward to seeing your ideas.

Edit: Okay, I updated the doppelgangers and encarans.  After re-reading your question, I realized I needed to clarify something.  Encarans cannot affect gravity, per se; they can shift their own center of gravity.  This is a physical/mental thing, not one derived from technology.