creatures to races?

[SDragon]

is there any way, aside from ECL, to use monsters as races? my first thought is to remove racial HD and everrything that it provided. i would assume this would work best when creature types (fey, humanoid, monstrous humanoud, outsider, ETC) are viewed as a sort of bare-bones "class". 3.0 seems to have rules for this, at very least judging from the introduction of MM2.

the idea works like this: a human grown completely in the wild, with absolutely no sense of civilization whatsoever, would be statted as if it had a single level in Humanoid (HD: 1d8, etc; see MM2, pages 8-9). it could, theoretically, continue to advance as Humanoid, or (the obviously more common approach) it could replace that "level" with a class level (remaining at 1HD, but in a class instead of a type).

is there any way to do something lik this for 3.5? if one wanted to change a bugbear's racial HD into class HD, making a ECL of 2 (instead of 5) at the first class level, could they do it? what if somebody wanted to play a hag?

or maybe i'm just rambling incoherently about imagined mechanics? i dunno.....

[Matt Larkin (author)]

Check out Savage Species for progressions for monsters (monster  classes).  Remember monster HD are basically inferior to PC class HD, which is why you can't just remove them and their core benefits.  They're part of what are used to balance high ability scores, spell-like abilities, natural armor, etc.

[Xeviat]

If you remove HD and everything tied to it, you're still left with a ton of abilities that are above and beyond what normal races grant. I've created a calculator, which began as a class calculator, which can be used for calculating level adjustments (even if that level adjustment comes out at 0).

The calculator was constructed simply: a feat is worth 2 points. That extended to a +1 bonus to one ability score as 2 points, and anything that could be priced as a feat is 2 points. When all was said and done, classes averaged out to 200 points over the course of 20 levels; which is nice, because it means that each level is 10 points. Eerily, races averaged out at 10 points as well (when outliers like the -1 point half-orc are taken out of the averages).

This means that, when you calculate a race, it's ECL is equal to 1 for every 10 points their calculation exceeds their HD times 10.

Monster HD are inferior to class HD because monster abilities aren't intrinsically tied to their HD (in some cases they are, as you can see with true dragons gaining 1 natural armor for every HD increase). But I'll ignore that for now, and show you what the per HD cost of each monster HD is:

Aberration Type: 5.85 per level

Animal Type: 6.1

Construct Type: 6, or 5.2 if mindless

Dragon Type: 9.5

Elemental Type: 5.85

Fey Type: 6.55

Giant Type: 5.85

Humanoid Type: 5.85

Magical Beast Type: 7.25

Monstrous Humanoid Type: 6.85

Ooze Type: 6, or 5.2 if mindless

Outsider Type: 9.5

Plant Type: 5.85

Undead Type: 6.7, or 5.1 if mindless

Vermin Type: 5.85, or 5.05 if mindless

That shows you the relative value of each HD. Most are worth 1/2 or 3/4ths a level, with outsiders and dragons being worth nearly a whole level (in fact, by my tests, dragons are probably underpriced for their level adjustments, as long as you're not trying to play a caster).

Savage Species monster classes are good in theory, but I haven't had a chance to see them in play. The theory is sound, though, and I intend to do such breakups for any templates I allow in my games.

[Le Narcissique]

I've created a calculator, which began as a class calculator, which can be used for calculating level adjustments (even if that level adjustment comes out at 0).

Hey, I like that sistem and could actually come quite useful for me now, I'm about to creat some classes and some races to my campaign in progress.

Could you care to explain this system to me a little more deeply >.<, I'd really pareciate it.

[Matt Larkin (author)]

One caution; WotC considers some ability scores more valuable than others.  For example, that is their justification for why half-orc gets unbalanced ability scores - strength is considered more valuable than Int or Cha.  Some would argue that's not true, but if you are playing a caster, you're probably not a half-orc anyway (an effect of the niche races).


Also, related to Xeviat's monster hit die breakdown, you can see how much WotC considers a monster HD worth in the MM entry for advancing monsters.  For example, 1 PC class level equals +1 CR, but it takes 4 aberration HD to equal +1 CR, or 2 outsider/dragon HD to be +1 CR.

[Xeviat]

Yeah, one reason HD are so powerful for PCs is that they come with subsiquent equipment boosts; most monsters don't really have much in the way of equipment.

A dragon with a 5 CR but a 9 ECL will have the equipment of a 9th level character, which can do wonders to boost their power.

I'll get the whole system up shortly Le Narcissique.

[SDragon]

that system sounds almost exactly what i'm looking for, actually. from what i understand, it provides the answer to the main question i came up with. to be sure though....

If you remove HD and everything tied to it, you're still left with a ton of abilities that are above and beyond what normal races grant.

wouldn't the best reply to this be to adjust the LA accordingly? if that's what your system is for (which it seems to be), then perfect, but if it's not, then is there a reason recalculating LA isn't such a viable option?

[Le Narcissique]

I'll get the whole system up shortly Le Narcissique.

Great n_n, That will be quite useful indeed.

As for the discussion:

Well... I've been wondering that same thing myself... I need to make some sprites and feys into character races... I'm also thinking of a system to determine what comes out of an interbreeding.

Like, if an elf and a human have a child:
1-25- The kid turns out to be the mother's race (Lets say, elf in this case) with some physical characteristics of the father's race
26-75- The kid is a half(mother's race)/half(Father's race), having more or less physical traits of one or the other race depending on the throw.
76-100- Turns to be the father's race, with some physical traits of the mother's race.

[Xeviat]

wouldn't the best reply to this be to adjust the LA accordingly? if that's what your system is for (which it seems to be), then perfect, but if it's not, then is there a reason recalculating LA isn't such a viable option?

Lets pretend that you have a humanoid race with 2 racial hit dice and a ton of racial abilities. After calculating it, you determine your races abilities (including the HD) come out to a perfect 40 points. That means this race requires a +1 LA: 10 base, 20 for the HD, and 10 for the LA.

Since this is a humanoid, its racial HD are worth 5.85 points; now, if you remove both of its racial HD, its total value decreases to 28.3 points, which means it now requires a +2 LA: 10 base, 18.3 for the LA.

Removing the HD requires you to increase the LA. While you have reduced the ECL, which might help casters, you've also softened them up for combat roles. I, personally, prefer my races to have either Racial HD and no LA, or an LA not exceeding their racial HD (I'm having to alter drow and bugbear for my setting), but this might just be personal preference. I also think that non-caster HD and LA should add to 1/2 to caster level, like how Initiator level is determined in Tome of Battle, but that's just me.

I'll have the calculator up tomorrow evening, since a few people like the idea. Fractal from the WotC boards, and the makers of BESM have to take some credit, but I've refined their work even more.