Tasothilos, the Second World (New, Updated, D20-less version)

[Túrin]

I can't see the map. :(

The deities remain very cool. I very much like how you've detached them from the original player characters that inspired them (which has been a gradual process, as I learned watching Tasothilos develop). I also like the new alignment-less version. Ali, in particular, has become much more ambiguous, which I like a lot.

A question: am I correct in assuming that nothing in the "mythology" entries is considered canon anymore by the people of the Salabrian area? That the "Second World" story has completely replaced the stories of the Ur-Gods?

Túrin

[f_hayek]

Read the whole 'OOC: Some History of Tasothilos' post - very interesting to hear the human story behind a setting's creation. Thanks for posting it! I wish more worlds described the real-world aspect behind the setting.

[Kalos Mer]

You are for the most part correct - the architects of the Second World doctrine tried to incorporate some of the most prominent parts of the mythology, rationalizing them as exploits of the gods in the First World, pre-ascension.  However, the majority of the mythic corpus, most notably of course the creation of the world,  was dismissed as superstition.  It lives on now only in art and a few obscure 'pagan' sects.

One significant exception is the Serpent's War, which survived in a modified form.  In the 'new' version of the myth, the Serpent's War is not an already-evil Alamir rising from exile to challenge Heaven, but instead a formerly-cooperative Alamir revolting in an attempt to crown himself king of the Gods in place of Onaleus.  The rest of the myth survives fairly well - he raises up an army of twisted creations from the Earth, is defeated and cast down by Onaleus.

I'll try to host a smaller version of the conceptual map on the site rather than rely on Imageshack - it's become increasingly unreliable for me.

As far as the OOC history goes, I think in general it's very helpful to know the framework in which the creator is constructing his world, and I believe that an OOC explanation of the project history is one of the best ways to do this.  I'd encourage more people to make such posts so we know where they're coming from.

The next three things I'm going to post, though not necessarily in this order:

(a) I'm going to edit the earlier post which I reserved for Races of Tasothilos.  As I explained earlier, I'm keeping the standard races in name and general shape for 'ease of use', but they're heavily modified statistically, aesthetically and (especially) culturally, so an overview will be helpful.  Several of the races (dwarves and halflings especially) were never really detailed directly in the old project.

(b) A more thorough overview of Second World Doctrine, as it was something that I never really explained before except in summary.

(c) an essay on Magic in Tasothilos, updating and expanding on the role of mystical forces in a fairly non-mystical world.

Once all that is done and some finalized version of the map is complete, I'll begin the long process of revising and updating nations from the old thread, though I'll intersperse some more new material so that old readers aren't just reviewing stuff they've seen before.

[Túrin]

Yrmos Partikos (YP) - literally 'The Living Empire'

Didn't you say earlier that Yrmos Partikos is genitive, which made the literal translation 'Of The Living Empire'?

Túrin

[Kalos Mer]

That was the case based on an early version of the Ekeusian language which was essentially "Ancient Greek only I changed all the words."  (It was actually, I believe, Yrmontos Partikou - the correlation to Greek is immediately apparent to anyone with any familiarity with the langauge.)  One of the major developments (unseen in the threads because my linguistic musings are only of interest to a very limited group) of the past three years has been transforming a language that was phonologically, morphologically and syntactically almost identical to Greek into one that is phonologically almost identical and only has some morpho-syntactic influence from Greek - making it more my own langauge.  

The form of 'Yrmos Parthikos' is liable to change as the syntax of my Ekeusian becomes more evolved.  I will assure you, however, that the abbreviation (YP) and the rough translation (something about the Empire being alive) will not change.

[Tybalt]

I'm very impressed by the mythology, which is one of the best I've ever seen. It genuinely has a mythical feel to it, particularly the creation and earlier myths. I like also how there is a consistent feel to all of it. One thing I'd like to see though is some sense of how the New and Old Faiths are actually practiced.

[f_hayek]

Haven't read through everything yet, but wanted to first say I couldn't agree more with your basic design principles:

1. Emphasizing consistent internal logic  :D
2. Rarer magic  :whoa:
3. Medium-High Power  :yumm:

I love the fantastical magical power that a character can achieve in d&d, but it's just always been difficult for me to conceive of a world where that kind of power is commonplace and to still have the world make some kind of sense. :soap:

[Kalos Mer]

On Magic in Tasothilos

[note=Magic is Rare] In reading the following, it is possible one might get the impression that magic is a somewhat common occurrence in Tasothilos.  This is not the case.  While magic is in theory quite universally available, in practice very few harness itâ,¬,,¢s powers because it takes a great deal of time and money to do so.  Further, the returns one gets for the investments are rarely sufficient to make the enterprise worthwhile.   Most peopleâ,¬,,¢s encounters with magic are limited solely to untrained, very simplified Willing â,¬' the sort of thing brought on by stress that might just as easily be termed an â,¬Ëadrenaline rushâ,¬,,¢.
As an exercise, I did some rough calculations: the human population of Salabrian region of the world probably hovers somewhere around 70 million in 1497 AP.  I estimate that around 40,000 souls - less than one tenth of one percent of the population - have any use of magic beyond the aforementioned untrained Will. Of these 40,000, only perhaps 2,000 are 'professional', fully trained wizards of one tradition or another - this amounts to about 3 men in 100,000.[/note]
In the Tasothilos setting, magic has a strangely variegated character.  It is at different times dramatic or subtle, mechanical or philosophical.  Provided he is clever enough and has the proper resources, a man from any walk of life may dabble in the mystic arts, and yet only the very strongest minds ever come close to mastery.  In this brief essay, I shall set out the fundamental nature of Magic in Tasothilos and also summarize its most common manifestations.

A Note on Native Terminology

[/b]
The Ekeusians produced the most thoughtful and prolific magical philosophers and practictioners that the world has yet seen.  Therefore, when discussing magic it is common for Salabrians to use a lexicon of terms derived from the Ekeusian tongue, built up and refined by over two millenia of tradition.  This language is rich and loaded with philosophical as well as technical vocabulary.  This lexicon is complicated by widely overlapping metaphorical speech: magic is variously compared with the practice of art, with the exercise of the mind, and with the creation of poetry, among many other activities.
Groups not influenced by Ekeusian tradition, however (other races like Elves and Dwarves are the most common examples, but also some of the more distant races of men like the Sakrtskayans, Ferrundar and Taecs) have vocabularies (and indeed, magical philosophies) entirely distinct from the common Salabrian versions.  For that reason, in this article, I will use a number of more universal coinages from Greek on familiar, accepted models.  Understand that these are strictly OOC terms, used for their convenience.  Nobody in Andozia calls himself a Logomancer â,¬' he instead would speak of an athundrapir.  A dwarf on the other hand would call the same man an Ahillak, the orcish term is mangiit, etc.

The Nature of Magic

[/b]
[ooc] The following section is the â,¬ËEkeusianâ,¬,,¢ point of view on magic, and represents many dozens of generations worth of philosophizing and theorizing.  It is not necessarily the view of other practitioners, and it is not even necessarily the â,¬Ërealâ,¬,,¢ reason that magic works â,¬' but it is an explanation consistent with observation (for the most part, though see the note below on "Magic Words".)[/ooc]

At itâ,¬,,¢s most fundamental level, Magic is defined as a particular ability of the directed will to manifestly influence reality.  The arcane philosophers of old played with this definition in a number of ways: indeed, Aphileus called any action undertaken deliberately, even something as mundane as shaping a ball of clay in oneâ,¬,,¢s hands, a magical act.  While the notion has a sort of romantic attractiveness to it, unfortunately it also blurs a useful, if arbitrary, line of distinction.  For the more practical purposes of adventurers and other modern practitioners, magic is defined as the ability of an individual, with a concerted act of will, to achieve results disproportionate to his actions.  The shaping of a clay object does not fall under this category â,¬' physical dexterity and skill is exerted in proportion to the quality of the craft.  The production of a globe of fuel-less flame or a spontaneous burst of speed or strength are magical actions, on the other hand. The nature of this principle may seem to be somewhat obscured when one examines permanent effects or magical objects, but the arguments of philosophers down through the centuries have quite competently explained that these, too, are an expression of will.
The will can be exerted unaided, or it can be directed and guided by ritual, incantation, or other accoutrements â,¬' though these different practices look wildly divergent, they all operate on the same fundament of directed will.

Before discussing some of these different traditions, a few more general notes should be made:

Unlike the Force of Star Wars or the One Power of the Wheel of Time, in Tasothilos

magic does not require an innate gift.  While some persons, and indeed some entire races, are gifted at magic and able to perform it more easily than their peers, with some practice and training, ANY person can, in theory, work magic.  Said training is extremely hard to come by, however, for it requires immense amounts of time, a leisure possessed only by a rare few.
* Logomancy, Ritual Magic, Arithromancy, and all the other magical â,¬Ëcrutchesâ,¬,,¢ that occur in the Tasothilos setting have all flourished because direct magical exercise of the Will is exhausting.  Even for those well trained in spontaneous â,¬Ëcastingâ,¬,,¢, all but the most trivial magics put strain on the the magician.
* Magic is an intrinsic part of nature.  Everything that exists was shaped by some form of primordial Will, and thus everything that exists contains some potential â,¬Ëmagical energyâ,¬,,¢.  For this reason, the idea of â,¬Å"Antimagicâ,¬Â or â,¬Å"Dead Magicâ,¬Â zones is utterly nonsensical.  It is possible for a caster to counteract or dispel the magic of others, and to disenchant or destroy anotherâ,¬,,¢s magical artifacts, but these are specific acts of magic in themselves.  No blanket â,¬Ëantimagicâ,¬,,¢ exists.  [/list]

Raw Magic: Willing

[/b]
[ooc]Iâ,¬,,¢m not entirely satisfied with the term â,¬Å"Willingâ,¬Â â,¬' it replaces an earlier term â,¬Å"Channelingâ,¬Â which I feel is overused and not particularly appropriate to whatâ,¬,,¢s being expressed.  I am willing to entertain suggestions as to a better term.

Also, the mechanics of Willing are the one part of the magic system still highly in flux.  In the old system, there were simply a set of magical skills that PCs could purchase ranks in like any other skill.  A skill-based mechanic is still what Iâ,¬,,¢m working towards, but the specifics are not yet settled.[/ooc]
Willing is the barest and purest of magical acts.  To engage in Willing, the user simply focuses his mind on the effect that he desires, and forcibly â,¬Ëwantsâ,¬,,¢ it into existence.  If he Wills strongly enough, then the wished-for effect takes place.  While it is somewhat simple in explanation, Willing is extremely difficult to execute.  In addition to taking tremendous amounts of willpower, Willing is also physically exhausting to practice.  The reason why some magically-minded individuals still use Willing is that it has the benefit of flexibility â,¬' in theory, literally anything willed for is possible.  That said, all but the simplest of Willings tend to fail, simply because the visualizations of reality are so intricate, and the requisite mental strength so steep.
Because the visualizations necessary for successful Willing are so complicated, there have been several attempts by philosophers and magicians over the centuries to develop techniques which break it down into more manageable pieces.  The most prevalent of these is the Elementalist school founded by the philosopher-mage Minil, which teaches adherents to visualize their effect as a combination of the four primordial elements of Fire, Air, Earth and Water, and Will these into existence in the proper proportions.  This school is very useful for combat wizards, for obvious reasons, and is widely applicable elsewhere, but it has its limitations.  Other schools exist, with the second-most-prevalent being the Trinitarian school of Boraleus (which focuses on Willing that affects living beings in Body, Intellect and Spirit.)

It should be noted that unassisted Willing, unlike some of the other forms of magic, is an all-or-nothing affair.  If someoneâ,¬,,¢s will is not strong enough to produce the wished-for effect, nothing happens at all.

Logomancy

[/b]
Because the act of Willing is so difficult and so uncertain, many different â,¬Ëcrutchesâ,¬,,¢ were devised by the ancients to help provide mental focus and a certain predictability and regularity to magical exercise.  (The collective Ekeusian term for all of these is panalar, â,¬Ëhelpersâ,¬,,¢.)  By far the most common of these is logomancy, or magic powered and directed by words.  The logomancer creates magical effects by speaking aloud words which help to channel his mental energies in exactly the right way.  There are two distinct forms of logomancy, one clearly older and more ubiquitous than the other.

Ritual Magic is the older strain of logomancy, one which appears in nearly every civilized society to some extent or another.  Ritual probably evolved from primitive prayers to the gods and religious rites â,¬' as people spoke aloud prayers, they found that certain formulas worked and produced results, and others didnâ,¬,,¢t.  Over generations, careful experimentation produced a great body of magical formulas that work.  (The formulas exist in theory for every language, though current societies tend to preserve the magical formulas of ancient tongues rather than experiment on modern languages to find new formulas.)  Even though other forms of magic have since been discovered, Ritual is still used because it is capable of the most powerful effects, although it also is imperfect in its protection against the fatigue of Willing.
     When a group (and it is almost always a group, though a few less-powerful â,¬Ësolo-ritualsâ,¬,,¢ exist) uses a Ritual, they designate a leader, who will actually execute the Willing.  They then must recite a number of incantations, with each participant having an assigned duty and set of speeches.  Most rituals involve elaborate dances and sets of gestures.  Rituals are also alone among magic forms in that they involve required material components â,¬' these are usually consumed by fire or by participants, but sometimes they are reuseable.  The average length of a ritual is about half an hour, though some go on for a day or more and a few are as brief as 10 minutes in their duration.  At the completion of the ritual, the leader uses these aids to his concentration to perform the act of Willing, and the effect is achieved.  (Because Ritual is somewhat imperfect, the leader is usually greatly fatigued by the effort.)

[note=Magic Words]The curious behavior of Magic Words seems to suggest that they have a life and power all their own â,¬' which is in some ways incompatible with the Ekeusian notion of Will as the true foundation of Magic.  The magical philosophers have been struggling for many years to adequately explain these behaviors but so far have been unsuccessful.
An alternative school of magical philosophy, one which regards Word and not Will as foundational to magical practice, arose in the 3rd century YP and had a certain vogue for about fifty years.  Itâ,¬,,¢s principle claim was that it could adequately explain the behaviors of Magic Words, but it stumbled itself when dealing with unassisted Willing and other types of magic.[/note] Spellcasting is the younger sibling of Ritual Magic, and it is less common.  While Ritual Magic is quite powerful â,¬' perhaps the most powerful of mortal magical techniques - itâ,¬,,¢s many demands such as expensive materials, great amounts of time, and the like made it very impractical for more short-term magical demands and especially for combat.  The Ekeusians, therefore (as well as some other groups independently, like the Elves, Ferrundar and Taecs) began to experiment to see if formulas could be condensed into shorter, more powerful versions.  In so doing, they stumbled upon what the Ekeusians call the kalathunaios â,¬' the magic words.  This is a language of mighty syllables which, when spoken correctly, align the mind immediately and precisely such that the Will of the caster might be executed flawlessly and quickly.  This language is universal â,¬' whether a Taec or an Elf is researching a given spell, he will arrive at the same set of words.
These words have two curious properties.  First â,¬' when internalized and committed to memory, one of these spells exerts a great pressure on the mind, a mere distraction in most cases but dangerous to the sanity if one should attempt to intake a spell too complex.  Indeed, a single simple incantation is generally enough to take normal manâ,¬,,¢s mind to its limit.  It is only through a combination of natural genius and careful practice that one is able to expand the â,¬Ëcapacityâ,¬,,¢ of oneâ,¬,,¢s mind for spell-words.
Fortunately, then, the second property of Spell-Words is that once uttered, they vanish from the mind of the utterer.  The reason for this is variously explained â,¬' some say, for instance, that the Magic Words are actual crystalizations of the Will which are destroyed in speech in order to fuel the Spell.  It is, however, iron-clad fact that once a Spell is cast, the caster must study (really, discover â,¬' see below) the words again.
This magical language is so subtle in itâ,¬,,¢s pronunciation and form that it cannot be directly represented in writing.  Instead, most spellbooks are in fact elaborate grammars and lexica, designed to reproduce the steps necessary to â,¬Ërediscoverâ,¬,,¢ the magical syllables each time the reader studies the text.  (Some other methods exist for indirectly recording spells in books, and these will be discussed at a later time.)

Arithromancy

[/b]
While Ritual and Willing are ubiquitous and Spellcasting was independently developed by several different peoples in Tasothilos, Arithromancy is a purely Ekeusian art.  It is a brand of magic unsuited to flashy displays, unlike much of Spellcasting.  However, in the arts of divination and (especially) of enchanting items, its power is unparalleled.
Arithromancy grew out of the writings of a single author, Mathalir of Parmati, who published his work Observations sometime around 130 MP.  The basic principle of the Observations is that in addition to physical mathematical laws, the universe also obeys a number of metaphysical and magical mathematical laws.  By observation and calculation involving these laws, Mathalir said that it should be possible both to predict and to influence the outcome of future events.
For nearly a century, the Observations was neglected by the magical community.  Around 50 MP, however, the work was discovered by the archmage Onalanir the Great, who wrote and published his Commentary on the Observations â,¬' a work almost as comprehensive in itâ,¬,,¢s scope, and much clearer in itâ,¬,,¢s presentation, than the original.  Onalanir was a dabbler arithromancy, no serious practitioner â,¬' but he is called â,¬Ëfatherâ,¬,,¢ (Mathalir is called â,¬Ëgrandfatherâ,¬,,¢) by many modern Arithromancers because he began the work of actually putting Mathalirâ,¬,,¢s formulas into practice
[note=Sacred Geometry?]Some of the ideas here are close in rough conception to Luminous Crayonâ,¬,,¢s Sacred Geometry.  This is coincidental â,¬' even the geometric portions of Arithromancy are quite different from LCâ,¬,,¢s excellent system.[/note]
The basic principle of Arithromancy is that there are particular signs and meanings in all numbers (and, through a process of Gematria, all letters), that these meanings are regular, and that by calculation predictions can be made on the basis of these meanings.  At itâ,¬,,¢s origin arithmetic, in time Arithromancy benefited by the introduction of  both algebra and geometry.  The former teaches adherents how to manipulate mystical numbers to achieve some magical effects (on a generally subtler level than Spellcasters), and the latter is the foundation of the production of arithromantic magical items.
Arithromancers are rare, even for magicians.  Typically, one first trains as a logomancer and becomes quite adept at that form of magic before learning anything of Arithromancy â,¬' for this reason, Arithromancers are awarded special honor and recognition in magical community.  (Non-practitioners find both groups equally esoteric.)

Lyramancy

[/b]
Least, and youngest, of the three Major Arts is Lyramancy, the practice whereby a musician may magically influence the minds of his fellow men.  Since ancient times, men of the Salabrian Sea have known that music has strange power to influence menâ,¬,,¢s hearts.  Some of the early natural philosophers even catalogued the effects of various chords and keys upon the spirit.  But Lyramancy as an actual form of magic was not discovered until around the year 550 AP â,¬' making it an art less than a millennium old.
Lyramancy is perhaps the subtlest of all magic.  It has no ability to affect external reality in any way â,¬' itâ,¬,,¢s sole power resides in the influences it can have upon the minds of men, elves and other intelligent beings.  A practicing Lyramancer is a musician who carefully tunes his instrument and studies the effects that various notes have upon their listeners.  While he plays, he concentrates his Will on his audience, choosing whatever notes harmonize best with his intentions.  The combination of his tunes and his words both weaken the resistance of his audience and increase his own concentration, so that he can actually change the minds of men.
Lyramancy does not allow a practioner complete control over his targets in any way.  He is only able to bring about slight changes â,¬' an implanted mood, a changed opinion, or a temporary unmindfulness, for instance.  Although slight, combined with a skill at non-magical bargaining and manipulation, lyramancy can give the adept user great influence.

Lesser Arts

[/b]
While Logomancy, Arithromancy and Lyramancy are the three most well-known forms of â,¬Ëaidedâ,¬,,¢ magic, there are a few other, Minor Arts that deserve at least passing mention while Iâ,¬,,¢m writing on the subject of magic.  The elves practice a form of alchemical magic based on the combination of plant ingredients â,¬' though weak in combat terms, applications of this art have made their forests grow quite tall and their fields provide quite plentifully.  Dwarves are said to have a form of magic that involves the manipulation of fire, earth, stone and metal.  Finally, there are two different (known) forms of necromancy practiced in Algarlin.  The Old Western form of necromancy is as old as Ekeusion, but has recently become much more common owing to the necromantic lords of Nidiata.  The Eastern form of Taectenatl focuses on the power inherent in the blood of sacrifical victims, both human and animal.

[Matt Larkin (author)]

Interesting to see someone else try to tackle the whole "this isn't the first world" idea.  I like the idea of honoring your prior players/work by incorporating them, as well.

Themes
Social class is often a theme in literature, but you don't see it in many campaign settings.
"language, literature, history and myth" - three of my favorite things!  And one, not so much.  Though I have worked with language a fair bit in a prior setting.  Still, it would be interesting to see what you do with it.

I have gone to work generating vocabularies and grammars of a number of the languages in the setting, particularly for the purpose of consistent naming/ The mythography I've indulged in so far is among my proudest work on the setting, even if it has no actual crunch value.

The importance of numbers and numerology[/quote]Mechanics[/b]
Not really something I'm real into anymore, but I'll have a look.

Gnomes are aquatic?  I'd have to say you're better off just making a new race.  It sounds to me like you may be keeping the name gnomes just for the sake of keeping the name.  Perhaps I am mistaken; however.  I'd at least be curious why you went this route.  Being an earth-spirit is kind of part of the definition of a gnome, so...Just like you wouldn't suddenly decide a fire elemental was the going to have the traits of an air elemental, like being made of air...But, prove me wrong.  Maybe you have a great reason.

Interesting class settup.  I like the tiers.

New alignment system has promise, though I'm one that'll almost always come down in favor of no system and just letting people be people.

Actually, your conception of magic sounds vaguely like mine for Kishar.

Glossary
Glad to see someone else keeping a glossary :)
It should be standard for any setting that introduces many concepts outside the norm or new terms

Pantheon
You've got a well-developed pantheon and mythos.  I admire that.  You mention elsewhere 14 gods (I didn't stop to count).  Did your campaign really have 14 players?  That's a BIG game.

"Distant gods" - again :)
I like the OOC insight into the development of the characters.  It's a great insight into the campaign.

Map
The image does not appear at all for me.

Magic
The sidebar is helpful in determining what is meant by rare.  I like that touch.
You've put a lot of time in this.  It looks good.  Also, it's a nice divergence from the typical style one sees.
I like the scientific edge of arithromancy.  It sounds very different (in many ways) from the ideas of magic I use for Kishar, but also with some significant similarities.

You're idea of lyramancy is cool, too.

Overall
I'm glad I read this, it's a good start and you have my encouragement.  Again, kudos for the preservation of an old world/party in spirit.
But I have a question: what made you decided to drop the archipelago format (one post seemed to indicate you once had this format and backed away from it)?  I always thought that was a great format for a roleplaying setting.  I actually made much of Kishar like this for this reason.

[Kalos Mer]

I'm currently working on the races post, which I expect will be updated tomorrow evening.  But I thought I'd take a few minutes to respond to recent questions/comments.

Haven't read through everything yet, but wanted to first say I couldn't agree more with your basic design principles:

1. Emphasizing consistent internal logic
2. Rarer magic
3. Medium-High Power

I love the fantastical magical power that a character can achieve in d&d, but it's just always been difficult for me to conceive of a world where that kind of power is commonplace and to still have the world make some kind of sense.

Social class is often a theme in literature, but you don't see it in many campaign settings.[/quote]"language, literature, history and myth" - three of my favorite things! And one, not so much. Though I have worked with language a fair bit in a prior setting. Still, it would be interesting to see what you do with it.[/quote]Rare magic: :)
Medium-High Power: I was going to give this a  :roll:, but your explanation sounds all right.
Powerful Churchs: :) Yay for making religion important with gods doing stuff all the time![/quote]Gnomes are aquatic? I'd have to say you're better off just making a new race. It sounds to me like you may be keeping the name gnomes just for the sake of keeping the name. Perhaps I am mistaken; however. I'd at least be curious why you went this route. Being an earth-spirit is kind of part of the definition of a gnome, so...Just like you wouldn't suddenly decide a fire elemental was the going to have the traits of an air elemental, like being made of air...But, prove me wrong. Maybe you have a great reason.[/quote]New alignment system has promise, though I'm one that'll almost always come down in favor of no system and just letting people be people.[/quote]You mention elsewhere 14 gods (I didn't stop to count). Did your campaign really have 14 players? That's a BIG game.
The campaign, like I said, ran for 4 years.  During that time, many players joined and many left (sometimes very quickly - Snoop Frody Fro, the halfling 'bard' best forgotten, lasted two weeks.)  Further, many players had more than one character during the run of the thing.  I no longer have a comprehensive list, but I'd say there were at LEAST two dozen different PCs that appeared at one point or another during the game's run.  That said, usually the number who showed to any given game session was around 6-8 - still large, but much more manageable.

I have a question: what made you decided to drop the archipelago format (one post seemed to indicate you once had this format and backed away from it)? I always thought that was a great format for a roleplaying setting. I actually made much of Kishar like this for this reason.

Much of early history of Tasothilos hinges on migrations on a massive scale which was growing hard to explain within the multi-island context: stone age peoples simply didn't move that frequently on that great a scale across open water.
*I like war stories in my campaigns, and the multi-island format largely requires that combat be primarily naval, while the inner sea format allows both naval and traditional warfare.
*In a similar vein, having nations that actually physically border one another gives a bit more tension and opportunities for direct conflict (border disputes, etc).[/list]

Basically, the inner sea format has all of the features of multi-island format that appealed to me and none of the inherent disadvantages.

Thank you, Tybalt, f_hayek and Phoenix Knight for responding - please feel free to ask any more questions that might come to you as you read.

[Kalos Mer]

Attempting to include the (again, very rough) map as an attachment - can people see this?

If so, here's the color key again for your convenience:

Color Key:
The area in red will be the home to MOST of the kingdoms that dedicated Tasothilos readers have been exploring so far- Andozia, Sanceline, Ferrund, Vievna, etc.  Most of these insular nations have been re-written as coastal continental kingdoms, though Miloa, Akmet and Philstaros (at least) are still insular.

The grey area are the great mountain ranges - smaller ranges (not pictured) exist in the red area.

The pink area is the domain of the great orc empire.  A few other small nations of the various other races exist here as well, but the orcs are the dominant power.

The big yellow area in the middle is a vast desert.  Ever since first seeing Star Wars, I've had a fascination with desert culture, so one of the crucial parts of the remapping plan was to get a desert in the picture.  Still no concrete idea what's gonna go here though.

The light green area is the domain of Sakrtskaya.  It's a LOT bigger now, but remember that Sakrtskaya is a convenient name for a number of feuding principalities with similar culture and religion, rather than an actual nation per se.

The white area is tundra or sea that is dominated by icebergs.

The remaining dark green areas are 'blank spots' on the map.  I'll fill them in a little later.

Taectenatl is located on a continent across the sea to the east.  I'm currently planning to design at least 1 other major nation on that continent to rival Taectenatl.

[Túrin]

Woohoo. I can see the map. Is that the North Pole up there? And why is Sakrtskaya suddenly so far away?

As for Taectenatl, will they still have variants of the Ekeusian deities in their pantheon? How are you going to explain this?

I loved your post about magic. Lost of stuff is explained flavourfully without taking away from the inherent mysteriousness. In particular, I like how you handled your people's thoughts on magic philosophically (with lost of opposing schools, without a decisive argument ever definitively settling a dispute) as opposed to treating it more definitive, one-sided and really, scientific.

Elementalist Willing sounds a lot like evocation, and Trinitarian Willing sounds like enchantment. Will there be a school of Willing corresponding to each school of magic we know from D&D?

Is Arithomancer actually more different to achieve game-mechanically (actually requiring Logomancer ability, perhaps), or is this purely in terms of flavour?

How close is Lyromancy to the spells bards can cast?

Is elven alchemical magic still used as an explanation for their good crops and hence their easier lives?

Túrin

[Kalos Mer]

It is the North Pole, or at the very least the arctic circle.  I'm not quite sure how far north I want the continent to extend; I will settle this before finishing the map.

Sakrtskaya and Taectenatl were moved so far away because they are the two most culturally distinct of the nations of Tasothilos and I wanted logical reasons for maintaining those cultural distinctions.  Sakrtskaya is still accessible (there are small trade-routes that run through the desert, where ambitious Salabrian merchants pay off the strange local guides in order to get safe passage) but not quite as easy.  This is the geographical equivalent of cutting Sakrtskaya off from the Myrian Road network of currents in Tasothilos '1.0'.

It had always been my intent to have the Taecs worship deities that Salabrians claimed were Ekeusian derivates.  As with many things, whether these actually ARE warped Ekeusian deities or whether they are simply natively grown divinities is obscure.  The Salabrian explanations for the connections, though, will likely involve things like ancient mariners who got lost, landbridges now sunk, etc.

I'm glad you liked the post about magic - it was specifically my goal to give AN explanation of how magic works without giving THE explanation, if you know what I mean.  On the nature of Willing, I haven't quite settled on the number of schools, but I know that it won't be quite a one-to-one correspondance and there probably won't be more than ~4 'major' schools.  Elementalism, for instance, covers Evocation but also Transmutation, while Trinitiarianism covers enchantment but also necromancy, healing, etc.

The Arithromancer, in my current conception, may well become a Master Class (see the hierarchy of classes above.)  If not, it will be a series of feats that a magus can take - so yes, they will be mechanically different.  While use of Arithromancy will not strictly require abilities with Logomancy, it will be the general rule that most Arithromancers start out studying word-magic, or at least Willing.  Very few otherwise 'mundane' individuals suddenly take up Arithromancy.

Lyramancy is a very limited brand of magic.  It has some relation to the 'bardic music' class ability, but it is carefully relegated to only those types of 'spells which directly influence the minds of men.  Inspiration, Distraction, Incitement to Violence - these are all well within the realm of Lyramancy.  It also is going to work on a much subtler scale than other kinds of magic.

Elven alchemical/'druidic' magic is still the explanation for their particularly abundant harvests and relatively effortless agriculturalism.

---
Thanks for your questions as always, Turin.  You help me cover all the angles.

[Matt Larkin (author)]

You mention that magic is rare because most people don't want to invest the time and energy?  Two questions on that:
1) Does that mean that people are fairly accepting of it?  I ask because in many rare-magic settings, people fear magic.
2) You seem to indicate that it is more common among elves (at least the agriculture stuff).  It would make sense to me that it would be more likely to be worth the time to learn for any long-lived race.  I suppose the question, if there is one, would be, shouldn't it be significantly common among among long-lived races, if time is the only issue?

[Kalos Mer]

Well, saying that magic is rare 'because most people don't want to invest time and energy' was a bit of an oversimplification on my part.  There are many other factors that go into the rarity of magic-users:

Most People Aren't Smart Enough: I said above there was no inherent 'gift' required in order to be able to work magic, and that remains the truth.  However, magic is extraordinarily complex and for people of average intelligence it is exceedingly difficult to make progress.
*Most People Aren't Educated Enough: In Salabria, for a magician of any type to be able to read any magical writings, he has to be conversant with Classical Ekeusian, the language in which most materials are written.  What's more, obviously, he has to be literate.  (Unlike standard D&D, 'literacy' is not an automatic given for members of any class.)  In order to study magic - in particular, spellcasting - to a higher degree, he also needs to have a firm grasp on magical and mundane philosophy, mythology, literature, and history, as the ancient authors used a wide variety of allusions in their texts.  
*Most People Aren't Rich Enough:  Ritual spells have costly components, this has already been mentioned.  While other forms of magic do not have material components associated with them, the books which contain spells and instruction are themselves quite rare and expensive, because they are all manuscript (ie, hand-written) codices, and therefore take a long time to create.  Although the printing press has recently been created, spellbooks and other magical texts are not among those being produced en masse.  (for reasons why, see the next item.)
*Teachers of Magic are both Rare and Selective:  It is in theory possible for someone to teach themselves the use of magic.  This is, however, extremely difficult and quite rare.  Most people who pick up the arcane arts have a mentor and tutor who teaches them their first spells or a school of Willing.  This is made difficult for two reasons.  Firstly, teachers of magic are only as common as practitioners of magic - that is to say, not very.  More importantly, though, even the teachers who do exist refuse to share their knowledge with just anyone.  Some fear that their knowledge might fall into the hands of wicked men, while other less scrupulous wizards simply demand exorbitant prices for their tutorial services.  There is also a general philosophy that every new person brought into the magical community is potentially a threat and rival.  That said, magicians DO teach pupils â,¬' they simply are specific about the sorts of pupils theyâ,¬,,¢re willing to teach.[/list]

With that said, as to your questions:

1) Does that mean that people are fairly accepting of it?  I ask because in many rare-magic settings, people fear magic.
2) You seem to indicate that it is more common among elves (at least the agriculture stuff).  It would make sense to me that it would be more likely to be worth the time to learn for any long-lived race.  I suppose the question, if there is one, would be, shouldn't it be significantly common among among long-lived races, if time is the only issue?

1) A big â,¬ËThat Dependsâ,¬,,¢ is the answer here. When talking about the literate, the educated, and the nobility, magic is less feared.  Many of the more powerful monarchs know of a wizard that they can consult in times of need, though only the Andozian Empire amongst the human lands maintains the position of Court Magician.  For city-folk, too, magic is a little less feared.  Among the rustics, however, magic is generally quite mis-understood, and therefore feared.  Witch-burnings and the like do not occur (except in Plaspont, but thatâ,¬,,¢s another storyâ,¬Â¦) but a known magician is going to be hard-pressed to win the allegiance and help of most peasants.

2) Among the elves magic is held to be more commonplace, although the elves have an incredibly strict caste system outlining who is allowed to use magic and who is not.  Since time is not the only issue, it is not *generally* the case that longer-lived races have higher occurences of magic-users, though.  The dwarves of Tasothilos live almost as long as the elves, and yet magic-use among them is rarer than among humans.