Legitimate, Above-ground Thieves and Assassins

[khyron1144]

In at least the major city of my world, Tera Prima, I am contemplating the idea of a legalalized thieve's guild and assassin's guild that is treated like a legitimate civic organization by all, no different from any temple, merchant's guild, school, or trade organization.


You can probably guess that I am at least partly inspired by Disc World.  There it's played for laughs in a way.


Can it be played straight or even kind of grim, like people are so resigned to paid killers and street crime that it's a relief that these people are regulating themselves and at least getting rid of free-lance crooks?

Or maybe short of actually legalizing the crime guilds, make one city judge who is very obviously corrupt and working with the guild to the extant that no guild member in good standing ever recieves a guilty verdict in his court.

Any thoughts?

[Polycarp]

Corruption would work, as would a government that is so weak as to feel threatened by the guild - threatened enough to not meddle in their business.  The city leaders would be very reluctant to take action against a guild that could easily have their throats cut the next day.  Likewise, a kickback from the guild to those leaders wouldn't hurt.  Nobody wants to mess with a good thing.

[Jharviss]

Legalized crime is a very possible idea, one that, while not widely popular, has historically existed.  Many times it's almost looked at like a balancing factor - there will be criminals, why not make them decent people?  The issue here is that if thieves' guilds become legal things, then why doesn't everyone become a thief?  Then, when they get caught, what do you do with them?  How do your prosecute a legal criminal?  

Victim: "I've caught you! I'm taking you to the authorities!"
Burglar: "No, sorry, I'm a legally registered criminal.  I have government sanctions to rob your house tonight.  Sorry."
Victim: "That's it, I'm not paying my taxes anymore."

Legalized assassins, on the other hand, is quite easy.  It would simply be a government agency used, well, against the government.  Slightly confusing, but it's not hard to imagine a government saying that assassins' guilds are allowed if the government can use them.  A truly totalitarian (or intelligent) government would keep records on its assassins, making sure that outside sources weren't hiring the assassins against the government.

It'd be dirty and twisted, but it is possible.  Just some kinks to work through.

[Polycarp]

I think that legalized assassins are easier to conceive of than legalized thieves because assassins aren't self-supporting.  Thieves don't really need the government, because they steal for themselves.  Unless they're on a guild mission or something, it's 100% profit.  Assassins, on the other hand, need powerful and wealthy entities to pay them for hits; they can't just start murdering people on their own, as they wouldn't get any money for it.  Thus, assassins would be more reliable; they would know that, were they to "break the rules" imposed on them by the government, the government contracts for various hits would dry up and put assassins out of business.  So long as losing the government's business remains problematic, the guild would have a very powerful motivation to keep itself legal and in compliance with city code.

[khyron1144]

I think that legalized assassins are easier to conceive of than legalized thieves because assassins aren't self-supporting.  Thieves don't really need the government, because they steal for themselves.  Unless they're on a guild mission or something, it's 100% profit.  Assassins, on the other hand, need powerful and wealthy entities to pay them for hits; they can't just start murdering people on their own, as they wouldn't get any money for it.  Thus, assassins would be more reliable; they would know that, were they to "break the rules" imposed on them by the government, the government contracts for various hits would dry up and put assassins out of business.  So long as losing the government's business remains problematic, the guild would have a very powerful motivation to keep itself legal and in compliance with city code.

Thanks.  That makes a lot of sense.

[Wensleydale]

I think that a thieves guild would have to be more like the mafia archetype than anything - more 'you give us money, or we'll kill you and your family and burn down your house, and THEN take all your money.' More that they're going to exist anyway, and it's cheaper and easier for everyone to pay a fixed amount than stand up to them and just disappear.

I say this because, as has been mentioned, thieves are self-supporting. A thieves' guild which just rob using edicts from the government seems like a reason for rebellion, whereas a thieves' guild that, rather than being exempt from the law, just never get convicted - that seems more likely.

[Lmns Crn]

I think it's entirely possible to play it straight, but in many cases, it requires a bit of a twist. I think it's a little odd to imagine the Thieves' Guild setting up shop on Trade St., right between the Cobblers' Guild warehouse and the Bakers' Guild Pastry Academy.

I have an easier time imagining governments turning a blind eye toward organizations, as long as they're useful and seemingly harmless. A sufficiently subtle and manipulative government could easily call upon an assassin's organization to eliminate people they disapprove of who somehow manage to "beat" the judicial system and evade conventional punishment, for example. Potentially even better is a so-called "thieves' guild" that specializes in the theft of information, which would be invaluable to any politician trying to root out traitors in his employment, keep an eye on the ambitions and plans of potential threats to his power, and dig up dirt on political opponents.

These things might be highly illegal, but persist anyway, just because the people in power would rather utilize them than squash them. (Or in some cases, might be too afraid to squash them.) Or perhaps certain unsavory organizations manage to achieve a degree of protection from the law. For example, what about a thieves' guild that pools its resources to get one of its members elected to the national Senate, to have a little more secret clout when it comes to voting on issues in the guild's best interests.

[snakefing]

One could also imagine a city that is divided by powerful syndicates. Like the Cosa Nostra, the syndicates make their money by legitimate or semi-legitimate businesses (gambling, drugs and liquor, prostitution, etc.) but they use criminal methods to enforce their dominance. Petty crime could be handled by the authorities as usual, but the judges and constabulary can't touch the syndicates.

The standard Lankhmar-style thieves' guild is set up as a kind of underground syndicate like this. The guild provides a certain amount of control over crime (by punishing freelancers and regulating the activities of their members), and the authorities leave them alone as long as they don't cross the line or let things get out of hand. The thieves know that the authorities can crush them if they need to, so they keep things from getting outrageous. But the authorities know that crossing the thieves' guild is bad for their health, so they won't come down on them for the most part.

[Polycarp]

The consensus seems to be that a thieves' guild would have to exist in some kind of not-quite-legal power struggle with the government at all times.  The government would always like to see them gone, and the guild would probably like to see the government taken down a few pegs, but a balance of power and threats prevents that from happening.  As long as the cost to act is higher than what is perceived as acceptable, the relationship will continue to exist, but such a relationship is inherently unstable - a rise or fall in government or guild power that makes the cost of action look temptingly low will probably precipitate the collapse of one power center or the other.

An assassins' guild, however, has the potential to be totally legal, and could even be so dependent on the government as to be a branch or agency thereof.  Their contracts to outside parties might just be a little "business on the side" that is tolerated as long as it doesn't offent or interfere with the government too much.  That relationship is inherently more stable, and can be totally, unquestionably legal in a way that a theives' guild probably never would be.