Discussion: History

[brainface]

yeah, i'd say 'old as dirt', and the old empire repressed/controlled all the more violent ones, at least.

Maybe the 'new empire' (BFG) had no nearby totems, went godless for awhile. or maybe they drove them off.

hmm... there was an idea in another thread--'First man to kill a totem'
We could say the BFG area had a totem, maybe a very bad one. Some guy kills it, helps found the new empire based on the 'real gods'--the saints of the BFG.

[daggerhart]

let me see if i can give a rough timeline, and you guys add or subtract from it at will.

Current Time (the 'when' of our campaign setting)

100  yrs ago:  the empire started to reform itself, attempting to regain it's lost grandeur.  (worship old-empire 'saints') * 500  yrs ago:  the mighty empire fell apart due to many issues. (aethiest by this time (no longer believed the totems to be divine).) * 1500 yrs ago:  the empire formed from a group of city states, and began conquering the continent. (worshipped totem gods) * 2000+yrs ago:  the known world was made up of city states, tribes, and clans.  worshipped totem gods.

tear it up.

[Ishmayl-Retired]

dagg, I think that looks pretty good, except I like maybe that after the empire formed from the city states, it didn't last quite as long as you have....

    *  300 yrs ago: the empire started to reform itself, attempting to regain it's lost grandeur. (worship old-empire 'saints')
    * 800 yrs ago: the mighty empire fell apart due to many issues. (aethiest by this time (no longer believed the totems to be divine).)
    * 1500 yrs ago: the empire formed from a group of city states, and began conquering the continent. (worshipped totem gods)
    * 2000+yrs ago: the known world was made up of city states, tribes, and clans. worshipped totem gods.


Something like that is more what I had in mind.

[Numinous]

Check the religion thread for my possible take on "saints"

[Túrin]

So why exactly did the old empire turn away from their totem gods? Why did it fall? Let's discuss the old empire some more.

[Soup Nazi]

Perhaps the totem gods were too divided along their own lines of belief to be condusive to the unity of the old imperium. I have trouble seeing the totem gods as a united pantheon, and I doubt they are. They seem more like a bunch of independent entities with their own goals and agendas.

As the city-states aligned themselves together to begin forming what would become the old empire, they probably had numerous theological differences that they had to put behind them...no doubt they simply shifted loyalty from their totem gods to the empire itself. While the people of the empire were still theoretically aligned with the totem gods, when push came to shove they sided with their empire first and their faith second.

Over the course of the exisitence of the old empire, various champions and heroes were at first renown, then became legendary, and were eventually canonized, by the people of the empire. A new faith sprung up around these figures. This was the death knell for the totem gods. The empire propabaly declaired the new faith the "official" religion, and cast out the old totem priests.

A war between the totem gods and the empire led to its collapse, and the resurgence of faith in the old religion. Until that is, that the new empire began to rise to power...

-Nasty-

[daggerhart]

So why exactly did the old empire turn away from their totem gods? Why did it fall? Let's discuss the old empire some more.

good call, turin.

Brainstorm: histroy -

Originally, the empire was a collective of a few citystates.  They each may have had a totem god that they all believed to be 'divine'.  
Throughout the early stages of Empire building, these citystates would often envoke their totem gods to assist them in conquering other independents.    
But something went incredibly wrong (details to be determined) and suddenly the original totem gods were no longer allied with the growing empire.  In fact, the empire had actually betrayed some of their own totems, and turned on them in the midst of battle.  Slaughtering them.

-----Many years of war and political intrigue followed (assissinations, coupes, whatever)-----
Within these times, the totems became symbols of barbarism, rather than divinity.  
The empire's major religion became aeitheism (they were more concerned with 'power', 'magic', and 'self-satisfaction'), but new religions (and religious figures) had began to appear (a few phrophets here and there).

Finally, through multiple internal and external comflicts, the mighty empire begin to fall apart.  Some, breaking back up into smaller city states, others being wiped out with war, famine, plague, etc.  
After X years, most of the planet had reverted to tribablism and city-states, but the empire was starting back up.

Tim, the great had created an alliance with a few city-states, and convinced them to lend their army towards the goal of 're-unification' (the empire's buzz-word).     It wasn't long before Tim's army had to face a totem in battle.    The legend says that Tim smote it, alone.   And his armies were always victorious.

During the beginning of re-unification, the seeds of the religions that had been planted at the end of the empire's days, had flourished in the city-states.  The prophets who predicted the empire's downfall and revival, are now generally accepted as saints of the true religion.  Also, new 'saints' were being discovered, who's virtues reflect the will of the empire ;).
All of this was perpetuated by Tim and his 'advisors'.  

Tim dies,  a 'republic' or council of some sort takes his place.  (maybe they have 'fake' elections, where they let people vote, but just ignore their choices. :) )

.. all for now.
tear it up.

[Soup Nazi]

Tim the Great eh? That has got to be the coolest name for an ancient hero since Eric the Viking...oh god I hope I'm not the only who remembers that movie...

-Nasty-

[Túrin]

Nice work, daggerhart. One question: why does the new empire get a council after Tim dies (rather than a new Emperor)?

[daggerhart]

Nice work, daggerhart. One question: why does the new empire get a council after Tim dies (rather than a new Emperor)?

i assumed that with the fall of the legendary leader, it would be very difficult for the allied areas to come under another single person.   I think all the seperate areas within the empire would want their canidate for emperor, so its likely they would agree on a multi-member leadership role.

but, in the 'taltos' books, the different factions take turns electing the emperor.   So like, 1 guy from CS-A would be leader until he died, then 1 guy from CS-B would been in charge, then CS-C, etc.  (this is also the way the European Union works, to some degree).

i dont think it has to be a republic, by any means...

[Soup Nazi]

Just a random thought here, but what if the totem god themselves destroyed the old empire? That would be awesome. The people of the old empire stopped worshipping them, and the gods laid the smack down.

-Nasty-

[Ishmayl-Retired]

Love it!

[daggerhart]

Just a random thought here, but what if the totem god themselves destroyed the old empire? That would be awesome. The people of the old empire stopped worshipping them, and the gods laid the smack down.

You could include that into 'war, famine, plague' as a part of 'war', but i think the fall of such a mighty empire should be due to many things.

[Soup Nazi]

Other than the Beast, the Sphinx, the Dweller Below, and other monstous totems going Godzilla on the empire? Does there need to be any other reason why it fell?

I see your point, but the image of the Leviathan throwing tsunamis at coastal cities, and the Tarresque rampaging through the imperial capitol is priceless...eat that heretics! You believe in us now!?!

-Nasty-

[Ishmayl-Retired]

It could always be just like the fall of Rome... it starts with something as simple as lead pipes, everyone getting poisoned.  Then there are the civil wars and arsons, then there's a plague, then the rulers of the empire lose the extremely minimal control over the totem gods that they had, and the gods go "wacky" on the empire.