[Red Valor] A Current quandary concerning the cosmos (Comments Craved)

[Elven Doritos]

(Bear with me, the following entry is heavily steeped in Red Valor lore.)

I've regained some of my interest in continuing Red Valor: Project 1301, but I've hit a sort of snag. Originally, I had decided to scrap my original pantheon almost entirely (excepting a few carryover deities, most of whom were latecomers to the previous pantheon anyway). These deities would be designed to reflect the changing sensibilities of the post-Artorian world and would represent the renewed sense of wide-eyed adventure and possibility in the world of 1301.

However, the deconstruction of the pantheon presents another storytelling option that hadn't occurred to me until today. The artificial seizure of cosmic energy and the sort of esoteric rebirth of the pantheon is slightly confusing and illogical concerning both the nature of divine power in the Red Valor world and the systems of inheritance of that power; since the previous gods were descendants of the Soread race, they were the logical inheritors of the Soread's power when the (untimely) generational shift took place at the beginning of the Rionian Age.

When the Anti-Mage slaughters the last remnants of the Soread descendants, the power should not be internalized in another, but passed to the servants of the Soread-- one of the Mevarian. Unfortunately, all three of the Mevarian themselves were presumed to be destroyed, but Illam Niruhet (the Keeper of Time)-- currently listed as a minor deity in the pantheon-- is the inheritor of the Mevarian legacy (in a sense) and possesses the Mevarian power. As the Keeper of the Mevarian power and the protector of time itself (functionally acting as an overdeity), Illam is well aware of the foibles and failings of divine beings with no practical mortal experience. Creating a new pantheon from the essences of those who had been destroyed would only return the world back to the status quo-- that of supremely divine and alien beings locked in an eternal power struggle.

I submit an alternative to the reformation of a pantheistic structure for Red Valor. Instead, Illam Niruhet could eschew the existence of "deities" altogether and instead redistribute the remaining divine power across the cosmos, appointing eight other mortal caretakers of that power. Each representing a different alignment (Illam would be characterized as True Neutral in this planar construction), these "Avatars" would operate on the Material plane and act as the literal representation for the Nine Alignments of the Cosmos-- Law at Good, Good, Chaos at Good, Law, Absence/Balance, Chaos, Law at Evil, Evil, and Chaos at Evil. This would require a good deal of restructuring of the social and political scene, although the majority of these avatars would operate discreetly across the Tare to avoid both harassment of the servants of the Old Gods and to avoid attracting the other Avatars to them. The Avatars would effectively be a combination of a sort of sentient alignment spirit and a mortal representing that alignment-- as long as the mortal remained true to the alignment spirit, he would be (for the most part) immortal and possess a respectable amount of divine power even on the Material Plane. Outside the Material Plane, the Mortal would actually possess a cosmic and divine body-- the cosmic entity would then be equally bound to the conscious and grounded sensibilities of the mortal soul.

This solves a few of the following continuity puzzles that I had been struggling with:
-1- If the previous gods are dead, why do some of their champions (Kamon Rikomi, for instance) still possess their abilities?
-2- What exactly is the origin of the new pantheon?
-3- How would a new pantheon related to the Tare be constructed?
-4- In the post-Artorian era, why are most of the previously prominent individuals no longer major players in a political sense?

In addition, I personally find it cool. If anyone actually followed that, I'd love to hear some commentary on the idea... Obviously, this is a fairly substantial departure from my current take on Project 1301.

[Raelifin]

Hmm... yes. The distortion of the world would be significant, particularly in regard to 1301 religious centers. How would such a change effect the nature of traditional concepts like church and clergy? Would the mortalization of the gods further the vision behind the setting? Why wouldn't the avatars of evil be out of control?

Just my initial thoughts. I'll keep up and continue to provide feedback as it continues.

[Elven Doritos]

First off, thanks for the expedient commentary. Now, into my responses:

Would the mortalization of the gods further the vision behind the setting?

Why wouldn't the avatars of evil be out of control?[/quote]Just my initial thoughts. I'll keep up and continue to provide feedback as it continues.[/quote]
Thanks!

[Raelifin]

Forgive me if I'm missing something, but why does Kamon get to logically keep his power under this new setup?

And is what you are talking about for clerics a bit like this: http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?25256 ? (But perhaps with less real-world ties) or is it a more general "clerics have four options" setup?

[Elven Doritos]

Forgive me if I'm missing something, but why does Kamon get to logically keep his power under this new setup?

And is what you are talking about for clerics a bit like this: http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?25256 ? (But perhaps with less real-world ties) or is it a more general "clerics have four options" setup?[/quote]

Roughly the former. The clerics of the Avatar-world would have access to all of the existing domains in the PHB (and a few new ones) and build their powers based on their philosophies and religion. For instance, someone who worships an ancient and long-dead fire deity renown for destruction and chaos could pick Fire, Chaos, or Destruction, but the "fire deity" is really just a subjective interpretation of the universal abstracts.

[Túrin]

Mortals walking the earth with divine power as the ultimate representation of their alignment? Sounds very cool!

*Mind you, I haven't read any other RV material, so that might explain any nonsense I might say.*

If this solves some continuity, consistency and/or logical problems in your setting, I'm all for that. It sounds like an interesting and fun solution at that.

Are the Avatars aware who the other Avatars are? Are they aware of what the others are doing? I can see them intervening with each others' plans when they become too big (as you said, large-scale destruction of evil would attract the evil Avatars and vice versa), but assuming they don't actually know each others' identity and actions (in which case it seems they would be fighting each other all the time anyway), it seems that subtlety would win the day: if one of the Avatars can gain a position of power somewhere without attracting attention (either by doing it slowly or by taking a role behind the curtain) he could still become a primary mover and shaker in the world.

One possible problem I can see is the different interests the Avatars might have. The evil Avatars, I imagine, would have their personal power and plans as their key priority (this is practically the definition of evil), making their primary objective "obtain as much power/pleasure/money as possible without drawing the attention of the other Avatars" while the good Avatars (also by definition) would primarily care for the good of the world and its people, making their primary objective "do as much good for the world as possible". My point is that a good Avatar could openly proclaim his nature and become a key person among the forces of good without risking an attack from the evil Avatars, as long as he doesn't obstruct their pet projects, since they care only for themselves, not for evil as a whole.

Will this over-deity you mention also walk the earth as the Neutral Avatar?

Túrin

[Matt Larkin (author)]

I have only read a little RV, mainly because I had been planning to wait until you finished project 1301.

But it sounds like you've come up with four good reasons for adopting this change, and only one reason (that it is substantially different from what you planned), not to.  I think that reason makes a decision difficult, but the final choice obvious.  At least for me, when I am faced with such a question.  At first, I remain reluctant to do such a massive re-write, but eventually, when I do, I am more happy with the final result.

I also like the who divine being related to philosophy more than deities, as well.

[Elven Doritos]

Are the Avatars aware who the other Avatars are?

returning[/b] to the Tare for the first time-- each of the Avatar hosts has been exploring the Astral Plane and the newly-formed Outer Planes: infinite cosmic landscapes that are faint representations of the abstract concepts they now compose. During these spiritual journeys, the Avatars are going to confront nearly every aspect of the Alignment they represent and come to terms with them. During this time, the Avatars are going to be encountering one another and debating, arguing, and "battling" (after a fashion) in defense of their beliefs. By the time of their return in 1301, they're well-acquainted with one another (and have gotten most of the violence towards one another out of their system).

I can see them intervening with each others' plans when they become too big (as you said, large-scale destruction of evil would attract the evil Avatars and vice versa), but assuming they don't actually know each others' identity and actions (in which case it seems they would be fighting each other all the time anyway), it seems that subtlety would win the day: if one of the Avatars can gain a position of power somewhere without attracting attention (either by doing it slowly or by taking a role behind the curtain) he could still become a primary mover and shaker in the world.

Will this over-deity you mention also walk the earth as the Neutral Avatar?[/quote]
When necessary, yes. The general absence of a TN Avatar is intentional, however; the Over-Deity is the caretaker of all divine power and will only manifest when the overarching Balance is severely upset.

Thanks for your comments!

[Elven Doritos]

But it sounds like you've come up with four good reasons for adopting this change, and only one reason (that it is substantially different from what you planned), not to.  I think that reason makes a decision difficult, but the final choice obvious.  At least for me, when I am faced with such a question.  At first, I remain reluctant to do such a massive re-write, but eventually, when I do, I am more happy with the final result.

I also like the who divine being related to philosophy more than deities, as well.

Thanks for the encouragement! I think the changes will actually end up being not as massive as I had thought-- adjusting the timeline, changing a few nations, and eschewing the Kynornian Pantheon will be all it really takes at this point. Especially if I have 1301 as the year where the cosmos Align, marking the first real emergence of the Avatars in the Material Plane.