Lost Horizons Discussion Thread

[Stargate525]

Discuss. Give criticism. etc.

discussion thread for the homebrew located  here.

[Ghost]

It sounds quite interesting, and I can't wait to hear more about it.

But one thing concerns me - how did they run out of food? I'd think that they would find some kind of edible plant or creature out there among the stars. Or, failing that, the technology to synthesize new food.

[Stargate525]

It sounds quite interesting, and I can't wait to hear more about it.

But one thing concerns me - how did they run out of food? I'd think that they would find some kind of edible plant or creature out there among the stars. Or, failing that, the technology to synthesize new food.

heh... bad analogy. I meant that they expanded as far as they could, and then slowly died. Much like a bacteria in a petri dish will eat all the food, then die.

Will definitely fix that analogy. That was horrible.

[Brian]

sounds cool!  Nomad Stars...Gypsie Stars...um...Wayward Stars...Sojourner...???

[DeeL]

Title suggestion - Lost Horizons.

And oh - what time scale are you using?  The term 'millions of years' is in there.  Assuming natural evolution alone, h. sapiens will almost certainly evolve into something else in less than 50,000 years...

[the_taken]

Title suggestion - Lost Horizons.

And oh - what time scale are you using?  The term 'millions of years' is in there.  Assuming natural evolution alone, h. sapiens will almost certainly evolve into something else in less than 50,000 years...

You could evolve back into yourself. Then theres re-evolution, and dead-ends.

Or you could willingly suspend your disbelief for a few minutes.

[DeeL]

@the_taken:  I appreciate the sentiment, regarding the suspension of disbelief, but this hits at what I perceive as being right on the line between science fantasy and science fiction.  Specifically, strict SF might postulate the existence of things that are not real, but there is a sense in which we can contemplate those things within the framework of principles that we *do* know.  

Science fantasy, by contrast, does not reward such contemplation for long.  It may be excellent artistry, but if, for example, you start wondering why repairing a starship isn't as easy as beaming out the damaged components and beaming in whole ones, as opposed to actually changing things by hand, you pretty much have to invoke principles that have never been documented in Star Trek cannon.  And that's just sloppy.

Mind you, it works great when you're designing a world, like now, but it requires you to actually think about those principles.  

Bottom line - I'm not going to suspend disbelief until Stargage525 tells me to.  Until then, I'm going to point out what I perceive to be incongruities in much the same way that I hope people do with my setting - constructively, coherently, and ever mindful of the fact that the creator of the setting has The Final Word (tm).

And I still think that millions of years is a HUUUUGE timescale.

As for evolving back into yourself - I have heard no documented instance of such a thing happening in nature or in a lab.  If it happens in this setting, it needs some kind of explanatory mechanism.

As for evolutionary dead-ends - I'm uncertain what this means.  If you mean that an organism is stable in the environment for which it was adapted for a long interval, I would note that the principle doesn't apply in this situation because we're talking about humans on other planets - evolutionary pressure to change and adapt would be even stronger there than anywhere on earth.

And it is my understanding that as large animals go, hominids are rather genetically volatile...

[Stargate525]

Title suggestion - Lost Horizons.

And oh - what time scale are you using?  The term 'millions of years' is in there.  Assuming natural evolution alone, h. sapiens will almost certainly evolve into something else in less than 50,000 years...

I assume this is the passage you're talking about.

@the_taken:  I appreciate the sentiment, regarding the suspension of disbelief, but this hits at what I perceive as being right on the line between science fantasy and science fiction.  Specifically, strict SF might postulate the existence of things that are not real, but there is a sense in which we can contemplate those things within the framework of principles that we *do* know.  

*space-saving snip*

And it is my understanding that as large animals go, hominids are rather genetically volatile...

I appreciate the outlook; it's exactly what I want. Someone to come with a needle and poke holes in my setting.

I'll be the first to admit that evolutionary standards and biological sciences are not my strong suit; by all means call my bluffs, I want to know what in my setting can't actually happen.

As far as suspense of disbelief, one I will tell you now. I know how unlikely it is that humans would evolve the same twice, suspend the disbelief there.  

[DeeL]

Stargate:  Okay, I think I see what the intention is.  I simply note that two mechanisms are required.  First - a mechanism whereby such an identical evolution would occur twice, and second - a mechanism by which the humans and/or other species after the Omega Burst would know that such evolution had happened.  Without the second, the whole setting device has no narrative value.  After all, technically, we don't know that we IRL aren't a second human race to occupy the earth.  There might have been another, it's just that there is no evidence...  (The mere existence of artifacts wouldn't count for this purpose unless it was stipulated that ONLY humans could have made them, which we can't say because we know that non-human tool users are keeping us company in the universe.)

[Stargate525]

Stargate:  Okay, I think I see what the intention is.  I simply note that two mechanisms are required.  First - a mechanism whereby such an identical evolution would occur twice, and second - a mechanism by which the humans and/or other species after the Omega Burst would know that such evolution had happened.  Without the second, the whole setting device has no narrative value.  After all, technically, we don't know that we IRL aren't a second human race to occupy the earth.  There might have been another, it's just that there is no evidence...  (The mere existence of artifacts wouldn't count for this purpose unless it was stipulated that ONLY humans could have made them, which we can't say because we know that non-human tool users are keeping us company in the universe.)

I'm still sorting out exactly how all of this is going to play, but I'll try and address these as best I can.

The first mechanism is probably going to be the burst itself. I'm toying with the idea of it leaving an 'impression,' genetically or otherwise, on the life that survived of the first humans. This would serve the dual purpose of giving an excuse for the second evolution to occur within the time that these artifacts could survive, and the fact that some fo them came up the same.

The second mechanism is the logic behind what most sci-fi series and books take for granted; 'aliens' are pretty close to us (two arms, bipedal, two eyes, a nose, discernible head, mammalian, etc.) and that these species, which have supposedly evolved separately in systems light years apart, are fertile with each other (This is a primarily star trek thing, half-klingons, half-betazoid, bajoran-cardassian, etc., but it holds nontheless). In the series, this seems to be glossed over, but I imagine that if this were to actually occur, there would be some scratching of heads in the scientific community. This coupled with the artifacts, all of which date before any known alien species could walk upright and are suited for the current species, would seem to be enough for some speculation. True, the current set of races doesn't know everything about their predecessors yet, but it should be recorded if a DM wants to use it as a plot point.

Edit: And Deel, I'm taking your idea for a title.  

[SDragon]

Stargate:  Okay, I think I see what the intention is.  I simply note that two mechanisms are required.  First - a mechanism whereby such an identical evolution would occur twice, and second - a mechanism by which the humans and/or other species after the Omega Burst would know that such evolution had happened.  Without the second, the whole setting device has no narrative value.  After all, technically, we don't know that we IRL aren't a second human race to occupy the earth.  There might have been another, it's just that there is no evidence...  (The mere existence of artifacts wouldn't count for this purpose unless it was stipulated that ONLY humans could have made them, which we can't say because we know that non-human tool users are keeping us company in the universe.)

I'm still sorting out exactly how all of this is going to play, but I'll try and address these as best I can.

The first mechanism is probably going to be the burst itself. I'm toying with the idea of it leaving an 'impression,' genetically or otherwise, on the life that survived of the first humans. This would serve the dual purpose of giving an excuse for the second evolution to occur within the time that these artifacts could survive, and the fact that some fo them came up the same.
 

after reading this, i had tou doublecheck to make sure whether or not it was you that mentioned watching Akira in the "you know you're a CBGer" thread (it was beejazz). one of the ideas mentioned is that, from an evolutionary standpoint, we still have traces (albiet impercievabley marginal) of early stages of our development, such as amoebi, and possibly even as early as the very creation of the universe-- or even earlier!

if you haven't seen Akira yet, it might be good for inspiration.

[Stargate525]

after reading this, i had tou doublecheck to make sure whether or not it was you that mentioned watching Akira in the "you know you're a CBGer" thread (it was beejazz). one of the ideas mentioned is that, from an evolutionary standpoint, we still have traces (albiet impercievabley marginal) of early stages of our development, such as amoebi, and possibly even as early as the very creation of the universe-- or even earlier!

if you haven't seen Akira yet, it might be good for inspiration.

I looked this movie up on the net, and it doesn't look half bad. The only problem I can see is the availability in my town of the movie.

[KeshFerrar]

I read through what you have...looking good so far. I definitely get the vibes your talking about from the respective TV shows.

One question regarding the aliens however: are they all humanoid? Its not explicitly stated in the setting thread, but I got the general idea after reading this thread. Perhaps I just missed it in the setting thread, but if not, you may want to append it somewhere.

And for the todo list: nations and power groups. It would give the reader a better sense of setting and the adventures that would be possible in it.  

[MBene]

The second mechanism is the logic behind what most sci-fi series and books take for granted; 'aliens' are pretty close to us (two arms, bipedal, two eyes, a nose, discernible head, mammalian, etc.) and that these species, which have supposedly evolved separately in systems light years apart, are fertile with each other (This is a primarily star trek thing, half-klingons, half-betazoid, bajoran-cardassian, etc., but it holds nontheless). In the series, this seems to be glossed over, but I imagine that if this were to actually occur, there would be some scratching of heads in the scientific community. This coupled with the artifacts, all of which date before any known alien species could walk upright and are suited for the current species, would seem to be enough for some speculation. True, the current set of races doesn't know everything about their predecessors yet, but it should be recorded if a DM wants to use it as a plot point.

TNG's episode The Chase (Season 6, Episode 20) goes into this for their universe.  An original group of "aliens" seeded the different primordial worlds with a basic genetic construct that allows for a general match between the DNAs of the different sentient spacefaring races; with the one ancient alien race being somewhat of an ancestor/progenitor.  While on screen it's only given that Humans, Cardassians, Klingons, Romulans, and Vulcans share a genetic founding culture, one could assume this stretches to generally the other humanoid races in Star Trek, as well.

[Stargate525]

I read through what you have...looking good so far. I definitely get the vibes your talking about from the respective TV shows.

One question regarding the aliens however: are they all humanoid? Its not explicitly stated in the setting thread, but I got the general idea after reading this thread. Perhaps I just missed it in the setting thread, but if not, you may want to append it somewhere.

And for the todo list: nations and power groups. It would give the reader a better sense of setting and the adventures that would be possible in it.  

Thanks. I've added those to the to-do list, and edited the first post.

TNG's episode The Chase (Season 6, Episode 20) goes into this for their universe.  An original group of "aliens" seeded the different primordial worlds with a basic genetic construct that allows for a general match between the DNAs of the different sentient spacefaring races; with the one ancient alien race being somewhat of an ancestor/progenitor.  While on screen it's only given that Humans, Cardassians, Klingons, Romulans, and Vulcans share a genetic founding culture, one could assume this stretches to generally the other humanoid races in Star Trek, as well.

That would be under 'things I've forgotten I've watched.' Now that you remind me of the episode, it is extremely similar.