Discussion: Empire

[Túrin]

A name for the Empire itself would also be a good idea at this point. Do we want the Empire, the old Empire and the capital to share names?

[Wensleydale]

That's a point.

So, any ideas for names? I wouldn't mind going with just 'The Empire of (current Emperor)' personally, but we still need names for aforementioned personalities and the capital.

[Ishmayl-Retired]

Mmm, I don't think I would like "The Empire of X" as an actual empire name.  So, here's how we can think of names.  Do we want the empire's language to have a Tolkienesque feel to it, Roman, Greek, Spanish, English, African, Middle-Eastern, Russiean, etc?

My vote is for something a little different from the standard (and by standard, I mean Roman).  I'm a big fan of Middle-Eastern and Arabian-influenced languages, and not so much for our standard classical languages of Greek and Roman.

[Wensleydale]

I prefer african languages, personally, although I would also support eastern european and arabian languages.

[amikaligula]

will the title of the ruler still be emperor, then?

[Wensleydale]

Probably, but it will all depend. Kgosi, for example, would be one equivalent, as would Ukumkani, Khan, Imperator, Ymerawdwr (according to this dictionary, although I've never heard anyone say the welsh word for Emperor) and various other words.

[Ishmayl-Retired]

I kind of like the idea of having an Autarch, or god-king, sort  of like Xerxes in 300 (or many, many other references that aren't quite as familiar ;)) Someone who feels he is divinely appointed.  Just a thought.

[amikaligula]

That's what I was thinking, too, Ishy.  It beats the crap out of God-Emperor.

Anyway, I think there should be truth to this, and upon their mortal bodies' expiration, the former emperors are incorporated into the pantheon as saints, assuming that they were honorable to the empire.

For instance, Emperor X had a peaceful reign, during which he built aqueducts and improved the corn supply, and is therefore the deity, or patron saint, of agriculture, while Emperor Z was a conqueror so he is the deity/patron saint of warfare, etc.

[Wensleydale]

I kind of like the idea of having an Autarch, or god-king, sort  of like Xerxes in 300 (or many, many other references that aren't quite as familiar ;)) Someone who feels he is divinely appointed.  Just a thought.

It's a good idea. But never mention that film ever again. :P

*cough*

But in Sparta of course, there were two - which raises all sorts of interesting thoughts about the nature of government.

[Túrin]

[This is copied from the Discussion: Races thread as it began to drift into a discussion about the Empire.]

I agree with the summary, but not with your reasoning. I really think we should be aiming for an 'Old Empire = good', 'New Empire = good if you're for, bad if you're against'. The New Empire would be (ab)using the name of the Old Empire to gain good credit, but is in fact a bit more questionable (a bit harsher, I'd say).

My timeline would be more like (BP=before present):

450 BP: Old Empire founded, slowly expands until it covers most of the continent. Generally benevolent, mostly accepting of other races and cultures, etc.
150 BP: Due to unforeseen circumstances (even well-run Empires can fall, possibly one or more of the following causes apply: natural disaster, feuding over the throne, overexpansion) the Empire crumbles into a smattering of totem-worshipping tribes and city-states.
50 BP: an ambitious leader reinstates the Empire (at least in name) and starts conquering land rapidly. Saint-worship is invented(?) to unite the conquered lands culturally.
0 BP: It has grown fast and harsh measures keep it intact, but overall the Empire seems slightly overstretched. The number of slaves (including many non-humans) is rather high and might lead to problems.

Túrin

Old Empire = good is fine by me.
New Empire = harsher, is also fine by me.

I don't care for the Old empire conquering the entire or even half of the continent. The further it reached the less regions that can be made that were not under the control of the Old Empire.

I like the saint worshiping being invented during the new Empire.

I don't like the New Empire being close to crumbling either. With a stronger New Empire adventures can be written to continue the conquering in the name of the Emperor, or trying to take down the Empire before it grows to big.

I like an Empire that is expanding more slowly to try to keep from collapsing on itself, bbut this should be continued in the Empire thread.

Basically we both agree that Humans control the Empire and non-humans have little to no rights.

As for the New Empire being close to crumbling: I didn't mean it should really be at the point of collapsing. It should be so that if PCs decide to side with the tribes and campaign against the Empire, they should have a chance of achieving something. Hence I believe there should be some internal inconsistencies and/or problems in the Empire.

I still believe the effects we seem to agree upon are best achieved if we make the New Empire slightly more agressive (expanding fast) compared to the Old Empire's slower and steadier growth, though not so much that it will collapse into itself even without player interference.

Túrin

[Ishmayl-Retired]

I like what you've presented Turin.  Your timeline works well with me, as well as the general motivations you attributed to both the old empire and the new.  I'm sold.

[Poseptune]

Wouldn't a Lawful empire want to make sure things are stable before moving on? (I know I am probably grasping at straws on that one). As long as the New Empire is not collasping, I have no qualms about what you have posted Turin. :)

Any other comments? Suggestions? Cool ideas?


Any comments on my citizenship proposal? Comments Xathan's idea of lords and domains? Comments on Turin's timeline and Empire outline?

[Poseptune]

Wouldn't a Lawful empire want to make sure things are stable before moving on? (I know I am probably grasping at straws on that one). As long as the New Empire is not collasping, I have no qualms about what you have posted Turin. :)

Any other comments? Suggestions? Cool ideas?


Any comments on my citizenship proposal? Comments Xathan's idea of lords and domains? Comments on Turin's timeline and Empire outline?

Discussions are hard when no one discusses. :)

[Wensleydale]

Right. I'm just going to throw some names out there, if you dislike them, please post a different name (as it's going to be hard to make true historical references in other civilisations without some names).

Now, the Empire:

Imperium of Allaha
Empire of Daan
Callin Empire
Sadun Empire
Ebarus Empire

Choose any, or make up your own, but please can we get some cohesiveness on this? :P

Next, the first Emperor, and probably the most important god.

African theme:
Emperor Babatunde ('Father Loves Me', 'Beloved of Father')
Emperor Baakir ('Eldest', 'Firstborn')
Emperor Chabwera/Chabuera ('He has arrived at last')
Emperor Chionesu ('A guiding light')

Eastern Theme:

Emperor Addar (Ruler, Prince)
Emperor Akbar (Greatest, Most Powerful)
Emperor Farid (Singular, Unique, Precious)
Emperor Jaali (Fearless)

Latin/Greek Theme:

Emperor Alcander/Alexander (Strong, Fearless)
Emperor Alexis (Protector of Man or possibly the Empire)
Emperor Eneas (The Praised One)
Emperor Adeodatus (Given by God)
Emperor Claud (Lame one, possibly the name of the last Emperor)
Emperor Sol (The Sun)

[LordVreeg]

Wow.
Good stuff.  Love the twisting of the God-emperor and Ancestor worship.

About the Empire history, and how it deals with the 'personality' of the old and new empires...So much of history of Empires deals with the internal histories of cities and the regions.  I'm not advocating figuring out every regional detail, but look at the historical examples.  Greek, Egyptian, Roman, Holy Roman, the Ottomans and their pricipalities, even the movement of population and centers of power in our curent Pax Americana...(from Boston and Philidelphia, the New York and the South, then westward), did any of them start in one city and just stay there?  Did any of them have one power base, and it just stayed there?

So is the ressurection of the old empire one that restarts in Rome, or Constantinople?  
I know Egypt's Empire went on for centuries (ours is kind of a baby...), but they changed capitols and power bases conatantly.

To borrow from our friend Mormegil, I'm going to take his timeline and expand on it.  These are still rough suggestions, but hopefully thought provoking ones.  I'm not trying to step on any toes, but just trying to help get the 'personality' of this Empire described, so things fall into place better.  
~650 BP City X starts to go through some sort of enlightenment, begins to attract talent, population, and dough.
~520 BP City X grows large, and moves from totalitarian govt. to more representative one.  Local small poluations centers (towns) start asking City X for protection.
~550 BP City Y and City Z, jealous, form an alliance (still a swear word in the current campaign...why not) and try to gain more support from other outsiders.  They fear city X, and they atart banding people together against city X.  City X, in turn, enlarges it's own power base.
~450 BP City X and the great man in charge of the representative Govt. defeat and conquer City Y, and lay claim to all the area between them.  City Z acts tough for a few years, but eventually capitulates.  Empire of City X oficially begins, with towns and such in the areas between giving fealty.  Every ally that both sides grabbed is now under the control of City X, and this is the beginning of the First Empire.
~350 through 225 BP  Empire of X goes through Golden age, the security of same allows learning and philosphy to grow, and all that crap.
~150 BP  Invasion, fire, famine, and the rebellion of City Q trying to break away frays dramatically at the ties that bind the Empire.  Combine this with a weak king and the forces of chaos subtly trying to til things, and the empire slides into chaos.  Next 100 years a slide into chaos.  (And Jubilex is Very Happy! :D Yay, Happy Demons---if you decide to have demons)
~50 In some quiet corner that was once the Old Empire, an intelligent man tries to weave back the glory that was Empire X  (trumpets, please).  UNfortunately, this coincides with the growth of the new 'Saint-worship' Cult, which starts in the same small township.  The intelligent man makes compromises and allies with the growing new religion, thinking he can keep it in check.  UNfortunately, the Saint Worship (maybe having the last rulers of the odl empire as the first saints...just a thought)becomes stronger and stronger.  This creates a zealotry that allows the intelligent man to create a readymade army that sweeps out of the small population center, and re-establishes the name of the old Empire, proclaiming to be it's second coming, on the authority of the Saint Worship religion.
`0 BP, as Turin said, the empire grew quickly, and due to the harshness that religeous conversion by the sword tends to create, there is much strife, as the conservative religeous forces try to consolidate their power and conquered terrritories suffer religeous backlash.  If the expansion of the new empire is fueld by the new religion, that ties the two together, making newly conquered territories more likely to rebel, and areas in conflict outside the empire hate it even more.


Love the name Alcander.  That is a winner.
The Roman Empire was called the Imperium.   The Ottoman Empire was acually called the Sublime Ottoman State.  You call things an Empire in history class, rarely in politics (Except for the Holy Roman Idiots).  So I am far more fond of the Imperium of Allaha, since it avoids the Empire term.