Convergence Meta-Thread

[Soup Nazi]

I don't think the Wuxia theme has to mesh with the monotheistic church at all. The Church of Izud is a hold over from a time before the Wuxia elments worked their way into the setting.

The elan and the maenads seem like they could be very wuxia inspired, and the general spread of psionics and psionic ability throughout the world since the convergence, represents a change in the way the world (as the humans know it) works. The church of Izud is the only element holding back the sweeping changes of psionics.

Spitualism, psionics, and wuxia fit together quite well, and the very fact that the church of Izud doesn't fit well into this genre is what makes the differences between them and the psionic cultures so well pronounced.

I think the elan and their mindset is much better suited to a spiritual, psionic, asian inspired theme. I think the maenads infused with psycrystal struggling with rage (after centuries of slavery) also fit well with this general flavor (like mongols in a way). The humans and duergar not so much, but we can work on that.

Anyone like the idea that the maenads used to be humans enslaved by the duergar, that were physically and psychologically altered by their experiences in the psycrystal mines? I want to work on this concept a bit, and toss out ideas about potential cultural outlook, history, and place in the world. Do I have free reign?

-Nasty-

[Soup Nazi]

Looks like I'll have to write up the whole rival faith earlier than planned so we can talk about specifics. (But yes, most elans will dismiss the rival faith just as quickly as they dismiss any religion.)

As an overview, though, the new faith doesn't think that the world defies the laws of Izud at all. Izud has set things in motion and departed, but has not abandoned anyone. He caused the Convergence (which the old church of Izud denies), and in doing so, has empowered the mortal races to achieve godliness in their own right.

I figured that a few new elans here and there might take a liking to the idea of being god-like stewards of a fellow-immortal's creation, even if they scoff at the "pointless rituals" that less-evolved beings keep suggesting are necessary to promote that idea.

I really like how that sounds. I particularly like their alternate convergence theory, and thier personal pursuit of "godliness in their own right." You've got my full approval.  :buds:

Regarding psionics as ki, I suspect you already know my thoughts on that. I have always wanted to see a psionic world, where psionics is the primordial source of all things, not a world where psionics is just X. (I've seen settings where X is arcane magic, divine magic, genetic mutation, incarnum, ki, technology, and pretty much everything else except "psionics." No one else ever wants to make a traditional, pseudo-historical fantasy world where psionics is the root of all things supernatural, not a derivative of some other, "more-basic" principle.)

You missed my point. I'm not saying psionics is Ki. I'm saying psionics has the same feel as ki, a primal force inherent to all things, and only unlocked by a few talented gurus, warriors, and spiritual people. Before the convergence this primal force was unknown, but there was always potential for it. Now that the duergar, elan, maenads, xeph, and dromites have all become known to the humans, there is a growing understanding of psionics. The fading power of magic makes it even more appealing to a people who are losing their sole advantage.

-Nasty-

[SA]

I'll leave the "psionics as ki etcetera" debate to you two gentlemen, but I must stress just how impossible I think it is for Izud to have even the most pitiable influence in Calleith.  Elan are harvested from human stock, but they are, despite both origins and appearance, utterly different creatures.

My next development concerning Calleith will better explain this, but for the time being this example should suffice: the assumption that humans retain their old religious proclivities upon attaining their elan identity (i.e "apotheosis") is like a child progressing through adolescence and subsequent adulthood but continuing to believe that covering his own eyes will render himself invisible to onlookers.  Elan regard religion as preposterous not in the sense that gods cannot possibly exist (though they would vehemently deny their supremacy), but with the understanding that the Divine, however powerful, will inevitably be supplanted by the will of the Elan.

The selection process serves to eradicate those who are so self-effacing as to supplicate themselves to a higher power (even the Dau Torii are considered nothing more than fellow elan, albeit ones of extraordinary venerability, and all elan know that they too might attain the wisdom of the Hand that Guides with the passing of sufficient ages), and keep in mind that the Taskmasters who observe the applicants can read minds.  They delve into the core of an applicant's soul, and therein purge whatever vestiges of mortal faith they chance to find.  This is not brainwashing, mind you, for the elan understand that while they might want a civilisation utterly devoted to the Immortal Cause, freedom of thought is paramount ("an unbridled spirit is nature's grandest beauty", as the saying goes).  They merely speak to the applicant's uncluttered Mind, without mortal sentiment and emotion to influence their decisions.  If, in their heart of hearts, the applicant remains unconvinced, then they are rejected, but the Taskmasters are never fooled.

So while it is a fantastic idea, I simply cannot see how it would work.  My goal with the elan is to create a nation that at least subtly evokes their creature type.  They are truly aberrations: they do not think like humans, nor, ultimately, do they act like them.  They are consciously aware that any human unworthy of immortality is ultimately so much raw meat, and nonhumans even less so.  The Apotheosis lends them an interminable longevity, and a vitality and energy that other races might envy, but it steals from them as much as it gives.  They are forever a godless people, and I cannot see how that could possibly change.

[Soup Nazi]

Hey I'll go with either direction on this one. You two hammer out the details. Whatever you decide is perfectly fine with me.

I know that the humans (after the decision was made to disassemble the empire) will be little more than tools for the elan, unless Caleith too is similarly weakened and divided. Angel and I designed them to counter-balance one another, and the balance is now out of wack...

The elan are an efficient machine very much divorced from the pollutions of "lesser" races, their ideals, and weaknesses. Given the way their society is structured, there is very little that can effectively oppose them in any way, other than direct military power or zealous faith in concerted opposition to the ideals of the forerunners. A division in the faith of the church of Izud will be exploited by the elan...

Nalassad was the mirror Callieth. Magic vs psionics, unshakable faith vs a godless hive mind, and yet they were mutually reliant upon one another. A divided human world is weak and easy to manipulate, yet the elan remain strong. Calleith might as well just enslave humanity; I can see no reason why they wouldn't, couldn't, or shouldn't.

Anyway...you guys chew on that and hammer out the solution. It's beyond my control now. I gave in and compromised, but I feel no obligation to fix the problems that result from it. This project is beginning to turn me off.

-Nasty-

P.S. I still love the concept of Callieth.

[SA]

Of course you love Calleith, 'cos everything I make roxxorz.

Yeah, nate, I see your point, and given that perspective I can see why the old Nhalassad makes more sense when you take the presence of Calleith into account.  Let it be understood that I do not oppose your original Nhalassad on any other basis than the potential for classic D&D adventuring.  Retaining your original vision would in fact be preferable, as you are right in saying that Calleith's refraining from conquering Nhalassad is unrealistic; I merely need to know what kind of adventuring would be had in Nhalassad if it was a single cohesive entity.  I certainly do not want this project to turn you off, and any elements that might do so are certainly subject to revision if need be.

So basically, what do adventurers do in (your) Nhalassad?

PS:
DMing in Sulos in 2 weeks!

PPS:
Do not let this project fail, if for no other reason than that my precious Calleith R0><><0RZ like radiocative marmlaade adn pwns teh n00bz and I don't want it to go to waste!

[Soup Nazi]

Adventures in my Nhalassad would often have beeen drawn along lines such as rebels vs. imperials, religion vs. psionics, old values vs. new values, and law vs. chaos. Here are some samples:

1. protecting/ambushing trade caravans
2. exploring and charting lands changed since the convergence
3. rescuing wrongfully accused criminals
4. staving off imperial witch hunts
5. stealing from imperial tax collectors
6. organized crime (protection fees, fencing, smuggling, and so on)
7. mediating disputes between different political or religious parties
8. hunting down wandering monsters
9. espionage/sabotage/infiltration
10. hunting down dangerous renegades
11. Provincial rebellion/imperial resistance
12. hate based crimes
13. mob justice
14. sewer crawls
15. train-jackings
16. martial arts/duelist tournaments
17. griffon races
18. war and all that potentially comes with it
19. diplomacy/foreign relations missions
20. capturing criminals/rebels/sympathizers

I'm sure I could go on and on and on...but the point is moot. Eric doesn't like the Roman provincial feel, or the semi-modern feel, or the concept of planes converging. He gave in let me keep the converging primes; I gave in and let him dismantle my empire. Compromises have to be made, or this project won't work. The part that bugs me is that we see things from opposite sides on everything. It's like I'm forced to work with something that I only half-heartedly support or even like. Tht's why I haven't made anything recently...I don't like the new direction of Convergence, and my contributions are worthless, because I'm going to put in a half-hearted effort.

I'm done with this experiement. It's not even close to fun anymore, and I'm not a writer trying make a deadline, or expecting to turn a profit here. If it's not fun, I'll get nothig out of it, and I'm not doing it; I'll find something else to do with my time.

-Nasty-

P.S. Feel free to use or not use the things I wrote already.

[SA]

Weel gosh darn it, this is rather disappointing, but if that is the way it's going to be then that's the way it's going to be.  I suppose you and Meepo simply entered this project with rather contradictory aspirations, so maybe it was doomed from the outset.  Nevertheless, the Nhalassad/Calleith dichotomy you had originally envisioned continues to inspire me, and regardless of whether you, Nate, wish to explore it, it is something I do not want to go to waste.

Meepo, if you have no intention of exploring the "lovers across time and space" idea I would heartily enjoy doing so myself (with your permission, of course), as Dystopia is undergoing somewhat of a paradigm shift in that particular direction, and any ideas you might have concerning it would be fantastic.

In fact... you will both be PMed shortly so that I may plunder your brains for the juicy intellectual sweetmeats that dwell therein.  Bon appétit!

[Epic Meepo]

Compromises have to be made, or this project won't work. The part that bugs me is that we see things from opposite sides on everything. It's like I'm forced to work with something that I only half-heartedly support or even like. Tht's why I haven't made anything recently...I don't like the new direction of Convergence, and my contributions are worthless, because I'm going to put in a half-hearted effort.

I'm done with this experiement. It's not even close to fun anymore, and I'm not a writer trying make a deadline, or expecting to turn a profit here. If it's not fun, I'll get nothig out of it, and I'm not doing it; I'll find something else to do with my time.

Not so fast; I have a solution.  You and Angel certainly agree on a lot more things about Convergence than I do, but Angel and I also like a few things that just don't make sense in Convergence.  Instead of abandoning the idea of collaborating altogether, how about splitting up to work on two different projects?

You and Angel could make Convergence with two competing empires and not have to compromise anything.  In the mean time, Angel and I could develop my prefered version of psionics in a different setting.  That way, we can all still reap the benefits of working in collaborations, but you and I needn't butt heads.

Angel wouldn't even have to do any extra work in this set-up, because his existing Dystopia setting already uses the magic/psionics system that I have always wanted to see implemented in a campaign; I'd be more than happy contributing to that project in whatever way Angel thinks most approriate.

That way, Convergence can live on as two balanced, competing empires, but I can still play with some of the contrary themes that I enjoy.  Win-win for everyone.

- Eric. -

P.S. Don't get me wrong.  I actually do like pseudo-Roman and pseudo-modern settings.  I just don't want to cannibalize settings that I've already worked on, any more than you want to cannibalize Sulos.  My primary objection was not that your ideas weren't cool.  To the contrary: they were cool enough that I've used them before, so I was just looking to do something a little bit different.

[Soup Nazi]

Sounds like a good plan Eric. I'm glad we had the chance to resolve this like civilized human beings.

-Nasty-

[Epic Meepo]

Sounds like a good plan Eric. I'm glad we had the chance to resolve this like civilized human beings.

And here I was, hoping it would come down to gladiatorial combat.

 :fencing: :jedi: :chair:


But yes, I'm glad we could work it out.

[Soup Nazi]

:chair: :chair: :chair: :chair: JERRY! JERRY!

Whatever you work on I'll be sure to follow it and offer feedback here and there. I really enjoy the things you write about, even if our own material is not perfectly compatable. Make sure to post either here or at WotC, so I can watch the "Love Story Across Time and Space," develop.

-Nasty-

[SA]

Eric, you beat me to it, as thay was to be my suggestion.  However, I am not sure Dystopia would be the best forum for our ideas, as while it does incorporate elements of perception-based reality it is still very much a realistic setting.  A far better arena would be Eternal, an idea I've had longer than Dystopia but which has gone unused.  It could be classified as sci-fi, but is certainly better described as epic, intergalactic, surrealist fantasy.  For an idea about the setting's nature, check out the rpg Nobilis; the concepts are similar.

Of course, input into Dystopia would certainly be appreciated, but the seting will be put on hiatus (the gaming group that I DM Dystopia for is temporarily dissembled).