Help! Rethinking My World Premise

[WizardofOwls]

Hello!

If you have looked at my Shattered World thread, then undoubtedly you have read my world premise which is as follows:

WORLD PREMISE:

Oramis was once a solid world like any other. A millennium ago, a war sprang up between two formidable mages (who also happened to be twin brothers but of differing ethical beliefs). This war raged on for many days, but neither mage could seem to get the upper hand. The final blow of this Wizard War was so potent that neither mage was able to contain it, and the world was shattered like a glass ball into a thousand pieces.

Since both mages were far more powerful than the Wizards' Guild could handle, it was powerless to stop the war. Luckily, however, the Guild (some of whom were diviners) was able to foresee this disaster months before it actually happened and was prepared. Though unable to completely prevent this event - now referred to as the Shattering - they were able at least to save the world from total destruction. After determining how the world would be shattered, the Guild devised magical devices - called shard-keys - and placed one of them on each piece of land which would someday become a shard. These devices maintain each shard's gravity, atmosphere, climate, and stability. If a shard-key were ever to be removed from the shard it was designed to protect, that shard would lose all of these things and would pose a hazard to other shards as it spun out of control. All of these shards were suspended inside a large envelope of air and set to floating within it in random, ever-shifting patterns.

Millions of people died in the ensuing chaos which followed the War's conclusion. Common people, blaming mages for the destruction and death, hunted down and slew many wizards. Much knowledge of magic was lost. Modern mages have yet to duplicate many of the marvels that have been accredited to those ancient wizards - including the magic which created shard-keys! Even today, after one thousand years, mages are still feared, shunned, and - in many places - actively hunted, despite the fact that they were instrumental in saving the world from total destruction. Undaunted they have continued to be of great service to man, creating the windriggers which provide transportation from shard to shard.

I have received alot of criticism on this, both here and at other sites where I am seeking advice. As a result I am ready to rethink my premise, and would love to get your help in this.

Problems:
- Most everyone agrees that they don't like the entire twins/wizard war idea behind the Shattering.
- Some want to know how common people were able to bring down mages powerful enough to shatter a world.
- Some want to know details behind the shard keys...how did they become intelligent?
- Some want to know how priests and deities tie into all of this.

Well, I don't have answers. I do know the folowing details which I want to work into my premise somehow.

- Long ago there was a race called the Dragon Lords who came from "somewhere else" (no one knows exactly where) who ruled the world for thousands of years, then disappeared. They were ulta-powerful mages. Elves and dragons are somehow tied to them.
- I love the concept of ley lines and standing stones and monoliths and would like to work them in somehow.
- Priests helped the common folk in supressing mages.

Here are some of my thoughts on the matter.

Perhaps the Dragon Lords came here for a purpose...something to do with magic. Maybe the magic here was wild and untamed and they set down a system of ley lines to help regulate the flow. Haven't yet decided if the Dragon Lords were called that because they actually were dragons. Or perhpas they were ancestors of elves who rode dragons. Or perhaps elves were the race the Dragon Lords chose to teach to maintain the ley line system after they left.

Anyway, maybe something interfered with the ley line system and this magical back lash caused the Shattering.

Perhaps the gods, angered by the devastation, had their priests begin the persecution of mages.

Where did the Dragon Lords go? Did they move on to another world which needed their help? Are they coming back? Or did they sacrifice themselves becoming the Shard Keys which now hod the world together?

Well, what are your thoughts on all of this? Better than the Wizard War premise? Advice? I'd love to hear your thoughts...

[Ravenspath]

Wizard of Owls, let me say first off very interesting concept. I like it a lot! But then I am biased towards a world being split up!

Most everyone agrees that they don't like the entire twins/wizard war idea behind the Shattering.

Some want to know how common people were able to bring down mages powerful enough to shatter a world.[/quote]Some want to know details behind the shard keys...how did they become intelligent?[/quote]Some want to know how priests and deities tie into all of this.[/quote]Well, I don't have answers. I do know the following details which I want to work into my premise somehow.[/quote]Well, what are your thoughts on all of this? Better than the Wizard War premise?[/quote]
Who says they are mutually exclusive? Maybe the twins were rogue Dragon Lords. Or some left over magic from the Dragon Lords helped defeat the Twins. Or ....


My suggestion is take a step back and see what you have. And do YOU like it? Read some the homebrews listed here and get ideas. See how others handled possibly similar situations. We don't expect you to have a perfect world with all the answers. This is world creation at it's finest. Finding the answers to the dilemmas you have set yourself.

The CBG is here to help with this. This is the best group of people I have run across on the Net. Ever. To me this is a true 'Community' that I know will be helpful, non-judgemental and overall supportive.

[WizardofOwls]

Hello Ravenspath! Sorry if I seemed to imply that anyone here had said something bad about my work. I worte this post and then just copied it to the sites where I am looking for advice.

Here are the comments I recieved from folks on other sites about the Wizard War/twins thing.

"First thought... jeez this is contrived.  Why do powerful wizards always have to be twin brothers?"

"Forget the wizard brothers having a tiff.  Maybe that's one legend of several.  If you want a true, underlying reason for the shattering, let it involve god-like creatures.  This is the sort of thing mortal man should not be allowed to accomplish."

"The whole Wizard's War is a bit Urza and Mishra if you ask me, but you have to start somewhere (I myself am going to steer clear of cataclysmic wars, events, blah, blah ruining the world in my next campaign)."

"I do, however, agree with Phil's criticism about the dueling wizards to a certain extent. If the Gemini-Godling-Demons, were somehow creations/godlings freed from imprisonment - by competing wizard guilds, or what have you - then it would add a little more flair (IMHO, mind you), than just two "guys.""

"1) Twin Evil/Good wizards destroying the world: Been there done that. My personal recommendation is to leave exactly why the world was destroyed a mystery."

My heart was not really set on that particular scenario anyway. The only thing I had in mind related to that that I had intneded to use later was that one of the mages, named Gemini, had survived but was now plagued with a split personaltiy. He has a desire to detroy things but later the other personality takes over and he tries to fix what he destroyed.

I like your idea of combining the two premises. I have to think some more about it.

[Epic Meepo]

The only thing I had in mind related to that that I had intneded to use later was that one of the mages, named Gemini, had survived but was now plagued with a split personaltiy. He has a desire to detroy things but later the other personality takes over and he tries to fix what he destroyed.

Maybe there never was a twin brother. Maybe the wizard was unwittingly fighting his own alternate personality the whole time.

[Ravenspath]

Wizard,
I didn't mean to imply that this group made such comments. I gathered from the comments in the thread and yours that it was from the other sites such things were said. That is what I like about the CBG. Even if someone isn't thrilled with your idea they will tell you in a polite way and offer some alternatives possibly.

To the the point that one of the comments said 'this is contrived' or 'been there done that'. Of course it has, that doesn't mean it can't be done again or even better. If you had gone with gods destroying the world or a brother sister team or whatever, someone would have said 'Been there done that.'.

Twins resonate with our social system for some reason. It may be that we can 'see' more clearly the possible dichotomy of good vs. evil. It makes the good and evil, in my mind, even more good and more evil because you have a direct contrast between the two. Many gods are part of pairs or even triplets. I have two sets of twins and a set of triplets in my pantheon.

Epic's idea is a possibility that seems very valid as an explanation. What if it was an alternate personality? Or as you said a split personality? (But if you go this right please make sure you use the correct terms. It would actually be a multiple personality. Schizophrenia, which means split personality, is not the same a multiple personality, which is usually a whole different personality in the same person. Literature uses the terms interchangeably and they really aren't.)

Sorry, one of my few soap box issues.

Anyway. This is your world Wizard, and if you like the 'twin' brothers idea, whether there are really twins or one person involved, go with your story. Not theirs, but yours.

[SA]

Quickly, on the subject of ley lines.

If one considers ley lines as "great foci of primal arcane power, conduits, whereby the great energies and orders of the world are coordinated and focused", and standing stones as "the ancient monuments that mark the crossways and meetings, divergences and terminations of such lines" (indeed, certain worldly mystics argue the existence of such things in our world), then perhaps a learned magus might seek to channel such energies into himself, harnessing them to his own ends.  Perhaps the magics of the unbroken world involved such channellings - all wizards knew of the ley lines then, for they were the very life of the world.

To expand upon the idea of a singular cataclysmic wizard, possessing an internal duality of sorts rather than existing (at least at first) as two bodily brothers, here is a possible theory for the origin of his pathos, for your consideration:

"To wield the power of ley, and not be consumed whole by its seductive and commanding power, a mystic must construct in his own mind a vestigial second self, which bears some of his own manner but is at best a hollow cypher, with which to confront and interpret the seeming nonsense of the arcana.  Only in this manner can one's mind be sufficiently shielded.

"However, with each channeling, this Shadow (so is the false-mind called) is given strength by the magics it is called to comprehend.  Every rite and every utterance suffuses in its empty core a little substance.  Though it takes a great many acts of power (or a few of staggering grandeur) to the supply the Shadow enough substance to contest the will of its creator, such is possible, and many a magus as fallen before the wild sorceries of his maddened, darker self.

"So befell the nameless wizard who would sunder the bones of Oramis, the very constituents of the world.  His power was supreme, his arcane comprehension complete, and by his hand were wrought such miracles as could be conceived by naught but a god's own hand.  His Shadow too, then, was complete in its understanding, and wholly intent on its own liberty and the destruction of its creator (for such is the desire of all such vestiges given sufficient strength).

"When it came, then, to the moment of their struggle, the breaking of the world could not be stayed.  For though the Shadow was of penultimate strength, the nameless one was of the ultimate, and so its every act was contested, driven back.  The Shadow drank heavy from the running rivers of ley, glutting itself, swelling with power, but as a vehicle still, and yet tethered, it was but the fount from which the nameless one slaked his own thirst, and so held his servant at bay.

"But the Shadow is interminable in us all, for it is the innate defense of every thinking soul against the crushing waters of the arcane (even the magicless pleb, who has no understanding of magic, possesses the vestige in some unmatured fashion), and once it has filled itself with desires of triumph and liberation nothing can curtail it save the absolute destruction of oneself.

"Perhaps, then, if the nameless one had done so, had drowned himself in the ocean of the Weird and so slain his aberrant brother, all that followed would have been but a dark and passing fancy.  But he did not, perhaps for arrogance or fear, and so the Shadow, seeing in the conflict no means for triumph, sank its ethereal claw deep into the ley, and filled itself with such a swell that its substance overpoured, and the nameless one too overpoured, and the ley, having lost the strength that had for eons sustained the fabric of the world, unraveled.

"In that great outburst, the dreams and malice of the two embittered halves were carried outward on the wave, scattered across the world which, at that very moment, exploded from its confines in a thousand shards and set adrift in the empty sky.

"The ley remains today, but its majesty is diminished, as is its order.  It snakes about the spaces between the shards, coursing like great luminous tendrils, or ghostly rivers held in suspension.  It branches out from the planet's dismembered core like a tree whose root is at its center, and all the broken pieces of the world rest on its extremities, a diaspora of earthen leaves, but not wholly severed.

"And the Nameless One and the Shadow both remain, though neither are as they were."

Just a fun little creative exercise on my part, and an idea to add to the mix.

EDIT: As a side note, concerning the Gemini idea, the above would mean that his destructive impetus is but the weakened Shadow within him contesting the dominance he has reasserted.  Perhaps the greater portion of the Shadow remains disconnected from its creator, scheming away as a sort of proverbial BBEG; these violent desires are all that remains of its influence, and if he overcomes them he might be free and redeemed, all the better to aid the protagonists in seeking the destruction of his wayward creation. (Although it is not without possibility that a new rebellious Shadow could develop in Gemini or someone else, perhaps reigniting the war and achieving the final destruction that the first one did not)

And yes, this is all rather Jungian.  It isn't intentional.  I don't even like Jung.

[SDragon]

I suspect, whether you go with the internal duality of multiple personalities, or the external duality of rival twins, there's going to be somebody that doesn't like it. People might say internal is too Fight Club, and that external is too Mishra/Urza.

Either way, I think it's just fine. Sure, they have both been done before, but that doesn't make either any less cool. Heck, I'm using the rival twins thing in Xiluh, and I think it's working out wonderfully.

Just a thought :)

[Tybalt]

I would agree--it doesn't matter if something is a cliche if it works. For instance recently Dungeon Magazine put out an adventure path which in part is all about how the demon prince Demogorgon's heads are in conflict.

The main thing you have going is this: the world is shattered, people are trying to survive and prosper in this strange environment that has evolved, and some seek to do more than that--they want to dominate the world. In a way THAT is a cliche, but it is such a vital part of any human story isn't it?

As for the twins idea: consider this. All stories, all campaigns are going to have some kind of conflict. If you feel wary of it now that it has been criticized, step away from your involvement for a bit and rethink it. Does it work for you? Does it seem exciting and interesting? Does it explain your cosmology in a satisfying way?

How did ordinary people defeat wizards? A pc asked this of me regarding a former college of psionics that was overrun and destroyed. It seemed fantastic to the player--how can people who can predict the future and sense danger be attacked effectively? I pointed out a simple truth--technology and awareness are not substitutes for common sense.

[SDragon]

:offtopic:

For instance recently Dungeon Magazine put out an adventure path which in part is all about how the demon prince Demogorgon's heads are in conflict.

 :huh:

[sparkletwist]

As to the question of how ordinary people can defeat wizards, if your magic system is based on one's capacity to serve as a sink for some sort of everpresent spiritual energy, or, in more of a Warhammer 40K way, one's ability to exert presence in some sort of spirit world, then, perhaps a large mob of people all drawing together their small amount of latent magical power (possibly together with a small group of lower-level mages to act as foci) could overthrow a powerful wizard.

[beejazz]

With all the taking of the split-personalities idea and running with it (as awesome as some of that is), I am compelled to offer an alternative:

There really were twins, but both souls somehow wound up bound to the same form. Hell, let's make it a "sacrificed" innocent while we're at it. Yeah... just remembering both lives as (s)he grows up...

[Seraph]

I would like to say of Salacious Angel's post:
" . . . Oooh!"
Go Sal.

Anyway.  Besides an initial incredulity that two mages of any power would shatter the world, I had no problem with the twins idea.  But the multiple personality disorder thing is even cooler.  I do have a problem seeing how the ley lines would continue to work after the world had been shattered.  I would say that there might be some local lines, but that as the fragments of the world have been disconnected the ability to channel magical power is (compared to the time before the shattering) incredibly feeble.  So perhaps it was that the Old Ley Lines held such tremendous power as could undo the world entire, but the ramifications of that meant the division of magical energies that irreparably shook the foundations of magic.

The tremendous amount of magic before is an explanation of how one or two wizards could have tapped into the power to destroy the world, and the division is the reason why such wonders as existed before are now impossible.  There may be entire sections of the world that have been cut off from the magical flow, where using magic is impossible due to the lack of ley lines to transport magical energies.

[LordVreeg]

Hmm.
I would have to say that instead of 2 sets of ideas that you have set forward, I see actually a developing and emerging storyline more interesting than either one.  I see you possibly maturing and developing the original plotline/hypothesis with the second set.

I think the Dragon Lords are a great place to start, a master, orginator race that predates the others, very small in numbers.  And having them create the Evles and the Dragons as thier first servants is very doable.

Perhaps, however, beings of great power do not rest and dream the way we do, and the reasons that the Elves and Dragons are so long lived is that they were designed that way to be able to survive through the centuries of sleep these Dragon Lords go through.

And perhaps the individual dragon lords created other servants for specific tasks, Dwarves and kobolds and orcs designed to dig and build, humans to serve the elves, etc.

But the Dragon Lords sleep longer and longer.

You could have the twins actually be the last-born children of the Dragon Lords who slep, and that could be why they were so much more powerful and destructive than other mages who seek to use the technology (magic) of the Dragon Lords.

And, just as a possiblility, after the worlds are sundered and split, the Dragon Lords are awakened and created the Shard-keys, which are not just tools but actually generate the magic that not only holds them all in place but which generates the power of all spells, becasue each shard key actually is holding a sleeping dragon lord, and this is known only to the eldest of dragons, who still serve the lords.

Again, just an idea.  But I would try to harness the power of both ideas and see if they become a better whole than 2 seperate sets.

[WizardofOwls]

Okay, here it is... a preliminary version of my new world premise. I know it still needs a LOT of of work, but I'd thougth I'd get your thoughts on it so far....

WORLD PREMISE

In the mist-shrouded ages of times gone by, Oramis was a different place. Myths and legends tell us that the world was whole and solid then, a sphere of unimaginable proportions. They say the world would turn its face away from the sun every day so that a great darkness called 'night' would fall, dividing the days into alternating days and nights. In this darkness, or so the legends run, one could see lights in the sky - small lights called 'stars' as well as a greater light the ancients called the 'moon'. The followers of Selene say that this is true and that this moon and their Lady are one and the same. But if that is true, who supplies their powers now that the moon is gone?

They also say that great sections of our world were covered in water. Vast 'oceans' of water so great that one could not see the other side, and so deep that one could not see the bottom. Ships plied their trades on the surface of these oceans and great monstrous beasts filled their depths.

Then came the Dragon Lords. From whence did they come? What did they want? What was their purpose?  No one seems to know for sure save, perhaps, the elves and dragons - and even they do not have the answers... or so they claim. For ages the Dragon Lords ruled, setting up stone circles and monoliths. Only they knew the purpose for them. Their servants, the elves and dragons, provided the labor, while the native peoples of our world - human, dwarf and twyll - could only watch in awe. Great magical powers the Dragon Lords had, and watching them we learned. We learned about building, about power, and ultimately, about magic. Through their servants, the elves, they began to teach our peoples the ways of magic, and our peoples learned well and true. Many of the people began to worship them, turning their backs on the True Gods. In return the Gods, in their jealousy and rage, turned their backs on us.

If only we had known what was coming....

Everything seemed peaceful according to the stories. Yes, the True Priests and the Followers of the Dragon Lords bickered and fought, but everything else, it seemed, was fine. Then one day the
True Priests began to cry, 'The end is coming! The Tapestry unravels! Turn away from the false ones and return to the True Faith! Bring their blessings back upon us before it is too late!' But few heeded their warnings.

Then He came. He Who Has No Name. The Incomprehensible One. The Destroyer. The Unraveler. The people cried out to the Dragon Lords to save them, but they could not be found. They and their followers, the Mages, had vanished, deserting the peoples in their time of need. The True Priests gathered their strength and stood up to him, but ultimately it was no use. The Unraveller struck, and the world was shattered like a glass ball into ten thousand pieces. But the True Priests were able to rescue us. They cried out to the Gods 'Save us!' And the Gods responded. They drove away the Nameless One, and created a sphere to keep the pieces of our world from drifting away.

Only after the world had shattered and the Nameless One defeated did the mages return saying that they had saved the world for us. The Guild (some of whom were diviners) claimed that it had been able to foresee this disaster months before it actually happened and was prepared. They said that - though unable to completely prevent this event now referred to as the Shattering - they were able at least to save the world from total destruction. After determining how the world would be shattered, the Guild - working feverishly - claimed it had devised magical devices called shard-keys and placed one of them on each piece of land which would someday become a shard. These devices maintain each shard's gravity, atmosphere, climate, and stability. If a shard-key were ever to be removed from the shard it was designed to protect, that shard would lose all of these things and would pose a hazard to other shards as it spun out of control. All of these shards were suspended inside a large envelope of air and set to floating within it in random, ever-shifting patterns.

Millions of people died in the ensuing chaos which followed the Shattering. Common people, blaming the cowardice of the mages for the destruction and death, hunted down and slew many wizards. Much knowledge of magic was lost. Modern mages have yet to duplicate many of the marvels that have been accredited to those ancient wizards - including the magic which created shard-keys!

For centuries mundanes - those who don't practice magic - persecuted those who do, blaming them for the catastrophe that was the Shattering, despite the fact that they were instrumental in saving the world from total destruction. However times and people change. As society began to rebound, people became more and more dependent on those who use magic for trade. There is now a grudging acceptance of mages in most places. However there are a few shards - even today - that still cling to the old beliefs, that remain suspicious of those who use magic and continue to support the witch hunters who help to "rid the world of those dangerous people."

RASAMA (the Royal Academy for the Study and Advancement of the Mystic Arts - also known as the Mages' Guild) was originally conceived as a means of controlling and monitoring mages in light of the general public's fear of them. All mages were required to register with the Guild, and those who did not were shunned and hunted down by witch hunters - betrayed by to them by their own brother mages. Today the registration of mages with the Guild continues, despite the general shift in attitudes and the changing views of most people. In many places a mage will not be hired for work unless he is a registered Guild member, and since the Guild still brands those who practice forbidden schools as rogue mages, often those who are not registered will be viewed with suspicion.

Undaunted by the prejudice and persecution they received in the past, however, mages have continued to be of great service to man - their greatest accomplishment being the creation of windriggers, flying ships which provide transportation from shard to shard.

[Seraph]

They say the world would turn its face away from the sun every day so that a great darkness called 'night' would fall, dividing the days into alternating days and nights.

I would just say 'dividing time' not 'dividing the days'  because 'dividing the days into alternating days. . . ' sounds a bit redundant.  Moving on to critiques of importance greater than that of grammar:

Ok, unless you're going to tie in the whole thing about days and nights, Selene and the Moon to something that has to do with the rest of this premise, leave it out.  It's confusing and doesn't add anything to the mythology (at least not in this context.)

 

Then He came. He Who Has No Name.

This is, I take it, our MPD uber-mage boy?  Since it is 'He' and not 'They' I assume they are not twins anymore, is he actually MPD though, or is he just an uber-mage?  So He came.  Where did he come from?  Was he, as LordVreeg suggested, the last child of the Dragon Lords?  Was he a being from another world?  A servant of some vengeful god sent to destroy the world out of spite (having been abandoned by his followers)?

 

But the True Priests were able to rescue us. They cried out to the Gods 'Save us!' And the Gods responded. They drove away the Nameless One, and created a sphere to keep the pieces of our world from drifting away.

Yay!  Divine Intervention!  That has a dandy way of fixing everything.  Forgive me, I don't mean to mock, but really if the gods were pissed at the world and turned their backs on it, why would they then turn around and save it?  Perhaps you have an answer for that.  If you do, direct me to it.

 

For centuries mundanes - those who don't practice magic - persecuted those who do, blaming them for the catastrophe that was the Shattering, despite the fact that they were instrumental in saving the world from total destruction.

Ok, so now we're back to the mages having saved the world.  You state outright both that the gods saved the world and that it was the mages who saved the world.  Or was it that the Gods got rid of the Nameless One and the Mages kept the pieces of the world from hurtling off into space?