D&D: Xeviat Edition

[Ra-Tiel]

Generally speaking
Perhaps you could take a look at my Worldgate Campaign Setting for ideas. I also reworked the skills to something closely resembling SW Sage (thanks to people from the WotC message boards ^^) and I think it works out quite well.

However, I fundamentally changed the system in key aspects (like combat abilities and saves now governed by skills), and my races do not have any mathematical algorithm for "balance" or something.

But perhaps you'd find some ideas... ;)

[Epic Meepo]

Kap'n: I like almost all of the skill changes you've made. For the most part, they exactly mirror my own house rules for skills. But just to make things more interesting, I'm going focus on the changes you've made to which I have objections.

Escape Artist is merged with Sleight of Hand because they are both archtypically similar. Look at modern day magicians/illusionists; most of their acts are made up of these two skills. They are thematically linked in the ability to move in strange and deceptive ways.

Star Wars Saga Edition has Escape Artist with Acrobatics (I can't imagine an Olympian gymnist having the ability to get out of a straight jacket), and Sleight of Hand with Stealth (I can't see a Commando knowing how to swiftly palm coins or pick pockets).[/quote]Listen, Spot, and Search are combined into Perception to free up the implied need to have a Taste/Smell skill; listen is hearing, spot is vision, and search is touch, but they don't need to be separate.[/quote]Use Rope is combined with Grapple simply because the main use of Use Rope is to bind foes, and if binding foes with yourself uses Grapple, then a grappler should be good at binding someone with something else.[/quote]
But Use Rope is also used to throw grappling hooks. Also, I haven't seen many wrestlers who know anything about tying knots, but I've seen Boy Scouts and sailors (both of whom are very good with ropes) that couldn't wrestle their way out of a paper bag.

[Pellanor]

Heh, just last week I was working on doing something very similar with skills. I must say that your skill list ended up being much better than what I had.

One thing that you'll have to take a look at is the number of skills / skill points. In current 3.5 there are 32 skills, plus the different Crafts, Knowledges, Perform and Professions. With your changes there's only 20, plus CKPPs. You've reduced the overall number of skills by about 30%. Now a Human Rogue with an 18 int can get 13/32(40%) skills. With your changes that goes to 13/20 skills(65%).

You'll either have to reduce the number of skill points that classes get, increase the number of skills available, or accept that characters will be more skilled.



As for the Saga skill system, I've never heard it before now, but my initial impressions is that it would be slightly easier for character creation / level up, but overall be more work and less flexible. The big thing I see is that it would break the prerequisites for many prestige classes and feats.
Overall, I don't like it.

[Xeviat]

I didn't mean I was going to make a taste/smell skill, I just meant that when Spot, Search, and Listen are separate, it makes you wonder where Smell/Taste should go when some creatures have Scent. By combining them, you avoid the issue entirely.

We combined Escape Artist and Sleight of Hand because they aren't really great skills on their own. I can see mixing them with Acrobatics and Stealth as Saga does, it just feels odd to me.

About Use Rope; I guess that's true. But it's not a good enough skill on its own. Could you see it going into anything? Survival maybe?

Ra-Tiel, I'm currently trying to not change the system fundamentally. I understand where you're going, though, with your system.

[Stargate525]

Skills

*Escape Artist is merged with Sleight of Hand because they are both archtypically similar. Look at modern day magicians/illusionists; most of their acts are made up of these two skills. They are thematically linked in the ability to move in strange and deceptive ways. Star Wars Saga Edition has Escape Artist with Acrobatics (I can't imagine an Olympian gymnist having the ability to get out of a straight jacket), and Sleight of Hand with Stealth (I can't see a Commando knowing how to swiftly palm coins or pick pockets). The "hide an object on one's self" aspect of Sleight of Hand will be Stealth, though.

I'm not so certain about this change. One involves gross physical dexterity while the other relies on fine, quick movements. It's very possible to be great at one and suck at another.

If you made these two skills more appealing to take, perhaps they wouldn't need to be combined.

*Listen, Spot, and Search are combined into Perception to free up the implied need to have a Taste/Smell skill; listen is hearing, spot is vision, and search is touch, but they don't need to be separate. Sure, many people are better with one or another, but it can be simplified as flavor-text; all of the skills are used to find hidden things.
*Move Silently and Hide are combined into Stealth because almost no character would have one and not the other. Sneaky people are simply sneaky, and with the creation of Perception, Stealth needs to be unified too. The skill is for hiding yourself or objects.
*Open Lock is combined with Disable Device because a lock is a device, and disabling it generally means opening it (since it's function is to stay closed).

Agreed, agreed, agreed!

*Sense Motive's merging with Will Save is a Saga change that I don't entirely agree with, but it makes sense in a way. If a wizard using an illusion to "lie" to you targets will saves, then why not a rogue using their words to "lie" to you?

ugh. That would make it the only skill that has a save instead of an opposed roll, correct? Since the saves scale differently than skills, this could present more problems than it solves.

I also think there's a difference. Will saves represent your force of will in resisting invasive mental stuff. simple lying would rely more on your perception of the person, not your force of will.

*Use Rope is combined with Grapple simply because the main use of Use Rope is to bind foes, and if binding foes with yourself uses Grapple, then a grappler should be good at binding someone with something else. Combined with Saga's ability to use Dex or Str in a grapple, this makes a nice change.

so grapple is a skill? or are you making use rope a non-skill?

I think your logic is flawed. knowing how to tie a good knot that won't come undone and being able to pin someone are very different. Also, use rope covers a whole other range of actions other than binding someone up. You wouldn't call for a grapple check if someone needed to tie off a climbing rope, would you?

[Xeviat]

Thanks, everyone, for all the input. With your help, the next "version" of the skill set will be coming through.

Pellanor, the "Saga System" is the Star Wars Saga Edition. It streamlined character creation. I don't like it 100%, which is why I wanted to discuss the merits and flaws of the skill training/level bonus system. OH, and in Saga, the most skilled class only has 6 trained skills (comparable to 6 skill points per level), so I would be reducing the rogue, for instance.

Stargate, thanks again. Let me see what I can say:

*I'm growing to agree that Escape Artist and Sleight of Hand can't be merged, but alone they are weak skills. Sleight of Hand "could" be combined with Disable Device/Open Lock as possibly a general "Legerdemain" skill, but that seems weakly put together. Escape Artist could be removed and merged into Grapple; I just have a hard time seeing Escape Artist as Acrobatics (I have a friend whose a black belt martial artist, and he can tumble with the best of them; in fact, I've seen him roll out of a car going 30 MPH; but he's admitted that there's no way he could dislocate his joints to get out of some of the ridiculous things that escape artists can do).
*Sense Motive and Will Save won't work, you're right. Every other skill opposes a skill, except for Intimidate (which opposes Level+Wis). In SAGA, persuasion (Diplomacy + Intimidate) opposes Will, and Bluff opposes Will, which is where I got the idea from.
*I was considering making use rope a non-skill. You're right again. What if use rope were made part of Survival? I don't like the idea of making it a Wisdom thing, rather than a Dex thing, but it's a weak skill if left alone.

Any thoughts on the Saga skill system (skill training grants use of trained uses and a +5 bonus, and you gain +1 per 2 levels to all skills rather than having points)?

[Ra-Tiel]

[...] Any thoughts on the Saga skill system (skill training grants use of trained uses and a +5 bonus, and you gain +1 per 2 levels to all skills rather than having points)?

I personally like how they combined several skills together. Other than GURPS and Rolemaster, I don't think I know a roleplaying system with that many, partly extremely weak, skills.

However, I seriously don't like the way SAGA handles skill points. I like that every character gets the "same amount" of trained skills, but having every other skill at the same level? I'm not so keen on the available classes, so bear with me in the following example. Why should an ewok fringer get "Computer Use" on the same level as a Sabrak Jedi, assuming it's a "not-trained" skill for both?

[Xeviat]

Well, computer use is largely a trained only skill; the only two things you can do with a computer without training is "access information" (which requires the computer to be indifferent to you; computers have attitudes like NPCs that can be influenced with computer use) and "issue routine command" (requires the computer to be friendly). But that is one complaint that many have.

[Stargate525]

escape artist, if you combined that with a functioning table for contortion, would become a heck of a lot more appealing methinks.

Sleight of hand could get the same treatment, I wonder what would happen if you allow it to emulate some low-level skills with a high roll (make flame from 'nowhere,' make something actually disappear, etc.)

I've got an idea about your bluff problem; tie sense motive in with spot, listen, and search to make a universal perception skill. You've now got a skill to oppose it, and all is right with the world.

Folding use rope into survival I like. for the kind of thing you're doing, the wisdom on how to tie the knot would seem more important than how dexterous you are in doing it. and the stuff that needs dex, like throwing a grappling hook, could be a survival check+ranged attack.

[Xeviat]

I'm not sure I like mixing that much with perception; I can easily see someone who is good at seeing hidden things but isn't good at telling lies from truth. I'd be careful, because it might get awfully close to only having one skill per ability score; hah!

What good would contortion be aside from squeezing through small spots or escaping bonds?

You mean have Sleight of Hand emulate low level spells? Not sure ...

[Epic Meepo]

I'm growing to agree that Escape Artist and Sleight of Hand can't be merged, but alone they are weak skills. Sleight of Hand "could" be combined with Disable Device/Open Lock as possibly a general "Legerdemain" skill, but that seems weakly put together.

really[/i] hard time holding onto.

As for Sleight of Hand: DC 20 to steal a small object (including a light weapon) from another character's person. Period. If they succeed on their opposed roll, all they can do is watch you steal their stuff instead of missing it. Wait for that drow fighter to close for melee, Sleight of Hand him, and shoot him in the face with his own hand crossbow. Then laugh!

Plus, a good Sleight of Hand check can earn you 3d6 gold per day for performing.

I would also argue that safely handling poison should involve Sleight of Hand.

I was considering making use rope a non-skill. You're right again. What if use rope were made part of Survival? I don't like the idea of making it a Wisdom thing, rather than a Dex thing, but it's a weak skill if left alone.

Agreed. Though grappling hook use should involve Climb (that's what you're using the grapple for, after all), and some knot tying might also be Craft (trapsetting) and Profession (sailor).

[Xeviat]

I've been thinking more and more on Sleight of Hand. The act of stealing seems more similar to a disarm check, while stealth would be used to hide the check. Palming items would also be stealth. The only things I can tie in with Sleight of Hand that wouldn't fit into Stealth would be juggling and other parlor tricks that rely mostly on hand-eye coordination.

Oddly enough, I might fall back on the SAGA method; I'm just not at all comfortable with Escape Artist being part of Acrobatics (using my friends as examples).

[Pellanor]

Here's a thought I had. Speak Language and Literacy are currently special abilities that you can spend skill points to acquire. Why not extend that list?

For example, you could add Use Rope. If you have spent the skill point (or two) on it, you can now tie nots and you can also Hog Tie people by making a grapple check.

[Xeviat]

Maybe. But I'm still considering using the Saga Skill system, the system of level bonus and trained skills rather than skill points. I'd really like to discuss the pros and cons of this.

[Pellanor]

From what I've heard, I don't like the Saga system. It sounds too inflexible.

As I said before, it would completely mess up any prestige classes or feats that have ranks in skills as prerequisites. That would be a big problem if you want your rule set to fit more-or-less seamlessly with standard DnD.

Also I feel that it really detracts from the flexibility of the current system. Right now I can have a character who is moderately good at a number of different skills, or is more focused. With Saga it seems to force you to focus your character on a narrow range of skills.

Also it sounds like Saga really rewards cherry-picking a skilled character at first level. If your number of trained skills are determined at first level, I'm sure a lot of people would take a skilled character, then immediately switch to whatever they really wanted to play, just to get those extra trained skills.

The only benefits I can see to the Saga system is that character creation / level up would be slightly faster, and characters would be better at non-trained skills.

Overall, I just don't like the Saga skill system. I'll be sticking with skill points / ranks for my d20 system.