Hmm...what do I do with this class?

[snakefing]

Some thoughts, more or less at random.

The use of lyric invocations instead of spells is pretty cool. But at top level they'll have 3/3/3/3 (least, lesser, greater, dark). I wonder if it might be cooler to let them have more of the least and fewer of the higher power ones, like 5/4/3/2 or something. Although there's going to be a tendency to replace lesser ones with greater ones, and use the freed up slot to pick up a different one. (E.g., add Lesser Hex, so Least Hex is obsolete. Drop it and pick up some other least invocation. Then, when you pick up greater Hex, you can drop Lesser Hex to improve one of your least invocations, and drop that to pick up a new least invocation.)

Sense Magic as a second level at-will ability is campaign-changing. Everybody and their brother would be wanting a minstrel on staff purely for detect magic ability.

The Fey Heritage thing, and everything that goes along with it, is kind of campaign-dependent. For example, in my campaign fey per se don't exist. Or in other campaigns the whole fey thing might be a little out of character. For me, that is the biggest down side. It might be interesting to develop variants that don't depend so heavily on that, for different campaign environments. The concept of lyric invocations is fairly distinct from the fey heritage concept.

To get maximum value out of Deceive Item, a character would have to spend some skill point on UMD. Not sure if that is a good thing or not. It makes some sense, but thematically seems a little out of place.

[Higgs Boson]

Howsabout swapping Eyes of the Fey and Sense Magic?

[Soup Nazi]

Actually, there is one little thing. This class is fey-heavy, but the lyric invocations progress least, lesser, greater, and then dark. It just seems, to me, that dark lyric invocations does not fit in with the style of the class.

Agreed completely.

Sir Vorpal definitively has a point. Why not call them "sublime" instead of "dark".

Sublime would be great if not for the overlap with the disciplines of the sublime way. The name needs to something completely unique I think.

Or uber!

or wicked hawt! JK.

As for the fey theme, why not allow more versatility: a member of the class chooses a heritage (celestial, draconic, fey, fiendish, or whatever) at 1st level. I can see the descendants of bronze dragons, harpies, lillends, satyrs, succubi and many other races all being musically inclined.

I don't really see a problem with that. It will make it harder to write thematic fluff though.
Sounds like a good idea for the "adaptation" section of the class description.

Some thoughts, more or less at random.

That's how this whole thing got started.  :)

The use of lyric invocations instead of spells is pretty cool. But at top level they'll have 3/3/3/3 (least, lesser, greater, dark). I wonder if it might be cooler to let them have more of the least and fewer of the higher power ones, like 5/4/3/2 or something. Although there's going to be a tendency to replace lesser ones with greater ones, and use the freed up slot to pick up a different one. (E.g., add Lesser Hex, so Least Hex is obsolete. Drop it and pick up some other least invocation. Then, when you pick up greater Hex, you can drop Lesser Hex to improve one of your least invocations, and drop that to pick up a new least invocation.)

What about this seems problematic? I designed the lyric invocations specifically so people could do just that (drop lower level ones like Lesser Hex, for a different lesser lyric invocation, when you get a more powerful Hex).

As for the lyric invocation progression it matches up pretty much identically to a warlock's invocations, a paladins spells, and so on. Many classes end up with an even number of spells (and similar abilities) of different levels as they reach their maximum potential around 20th level. Up until 20th level, you will always have fewer high level abilities than lower level abilities.

I'll change it gladly, if you can better explain to me wherein lies the problem. I'm just not seeing it.

Sense Magic as a second level at-will ability is campaign-changing. Everybody and their brother would be wanting a minstrel on staff purely for detect magic ability.

Warlocks get this ability too; paladins get detect evil at will. I understand that being able to detect magic whenever you want will have an obvious effect on the campaign, but we are talking about a 0-level spell. I don't see that much demand for paladins and warlocks for their  "at will detection abilities."

Do you really think an at will 0-level spell-like ability is that powerful? I could swap it with eyes of the fey (currently gained at 8th level) if its too good, but I'm not totally convinced that it is.

The Fey Heritage thing, and everything that goes along with it, is kind of campaign-dependent. For example, in my campaign fey per se don't exist. Or in other campaigns the whole fey thing might be a little out of character. For me, that is the biggest down side. It might be interesting to develop variants that don't depend so heavily on that, for different campaign environments. The concept of lyric invocations is fairly distinct from the fey heritage concept.

I completely understand. A base class really should be flexible enough for use in multiple kinds of campaigns, but most of the more recent 20-level classes, have been niche classes (like the dragon shaman, shadowcaster, swordsage, and so on) and this would be a pain in the neck to do as a PrC.

Were I to cut the fey theme, this class would lack any theme at all, other than basic musical class which is kind of bland. Do you have any alternate kinds of fluffy themetics to propose. I'm all ears. I can see other people here actually using this before I would, so I've got no particular personal attachment the current theme.

To get maximum value out of Deceive Item, a character would have to spend some skill point on UMD. Not sure if that is a good thing or not. It makes some sense, but thematically seems a little out of place.

Yeah, that's another class feature blatantly ripped from the warlock. Given that UMD is one of the most powerful and exclusive class skills in the game, many people maximize their ranks in it already. Unlike a warlock however, this class lacks a general combat ability (like eldritch blast) and since they only have a few directly offensive lyric invocations, Deceive Item can come in mighty handy with wands and staffs. Thematically it falls in line under the assumption that the class manipulates magic through unorthodox means, and that its magic is more innate than learned. Besides, who doesn't want a class that can pick up any item, and swing it around, chant various incantations, and cross their fingers until they figure out how to use it? that's some fun stuff right there.

I hope I'm not sounding too dismissive. I am completely open to alternate suggestions (I just want an actual alternative to replace any given class feature, since I currently have no dead levels at all, and that's kind of nice). Maybe we could have a vote on certain changes, yea or nay style?

I'm actually surprised that nobody has commented on the Unearthly Grace class feature, which in my mind was one of the most powerful class features in the whole package, or any of the lyric invocations, since some of them are quite powerful when you consider that you can use them at will. Though I did try to balance things by making it so that many cannot be used simultaneously, and the most powerful (like the melody of mindbending) require the use of fascinate first.

NEW IDEA: Lets start a list of class features (or other aspects) you guys would like removed, and suggestions for potential replacements. If anyone's intimidated by the crunchy stuff, just give a general idea, and I'll do my best to translate it into D&D tech. I'll happily sit down with this thing on Wednesday and tweak away.

-Peace-

[snakefing]

I hope you didn't take my comments as criticism - they are mostly random mutterings. For example, it is not necessarily a bad thing for the Detect Magic to be a campaign-changing feature. As you point out, there are other classes with similarly campaign-changing features, and the game hasn't broken yet.

As for theme, the coolest thing to me about the class is the use of lyric invocations as an alternative to the usual spell list. Not only is it mechanically more fun sounding, but it also has tons more flavor. I'm not sure that the fey thing really plays that much with that. I'd instead try to play up the theme of using music and sound to mess with people's heads.

I'll try and put some thought into it, but time and resources are limited.

The main power of this class seems to be more campaign-oriented and not so much combat oriented. Maybe some special abilities or invocations that help them escape and/or protect themselves. For example, a chord that causes enemies to pause for a round, or something like that. Bonuses against mind-affecting magic? I'm just throwing stuff up in the air right now.

- snake

[Epic Meepo]

I wonder if it might be cooler to let {the class} have more of the least and fewer of the higher power {invocations}, like 5/4/3/2 or something.

{T}he lyric invocation progression... matches up pretty much identically to a warlock's invocations, a paladins spells, and so on. Many classes end up with an even number of spells (and similar abilities) of different levels as they reach their maximum potential around 20th level.

Sense Magic as a second level at-will ability is campaign-changing. Everybody and their brother would be wanting a minstrel on staff purely for detect magic ability.

Warlocks get this ability too; paladins get detect evil at will. I understand that being able to detect magic whenever you want will have an obvious effect on the campaign, but we are talking about a 0-level spell. I don't see that much demand for paladins and warlocks for their  "at will detection abilities."[/quote]detect magic[/i] at will, you may as well let your class do it. You can't really unbalance the game by adding something that's already there.

That being said, having played a higher-level warlock for a while now, I agree that everybody and their brother will want someone with the sense magic ability around. The area of a detect magic spell extends through most doors, and at higher levels, almost all intelligent opponents carry magic items. Sense magic can regularly reveal the numbers and positions of intelligent creatures, spell effects, and magical traps in upcoming rooms. With a little guesswork, sense magic can also reveal which opponents are spellcasters and which and warriors, allowing the party to concentrate its efforts (and its dispel magic spells) on the most dangerous foe.

Based on this, I'm going to be really tempted for many of my future characters to each pick up two warlock levels just for the sense magic ability. It's that good.

But like I said, the warlock can already do this, so having someone else that can do it too isn't going to being unbalancing.

[Ra-Tiel]

Just another thing I'd like to add. What happens if a non-humanoid character like a star elf or a tiefling reaches level 20 in this class?

IIRC from Savage Species, the outsider and undead types are already "the top of the food chain", so to speak, and can not be changed into other types. However, exactly this would happen with "fey apotheosis".

Perhaps you could sneak in a small sentence like "unless the character already has the fey, outsider, or undead type" just to eliminate any possible conflicts.

I stumbled upon this because for an upcoming FR campaign I'm seriously considering playing a star elf minstrel. ;) (And yes, my DM-to-be also really likes the class! :D )

[Ishmayl-Retired]

This question is being posed mostly to Soup Nazi at the moment, but also can be directed towards anyone on the site who is good with crunch aspects and creating races and deities.  I'm thinking it would be a neat idea to offer an "alternative classes" serial in the Guide.  Something that basically replaces standard (core) classes with new, alternative classes, with good descriptions on how they can easily be fitted into other campaign settings.  Perhaps we could even use CBG members' settings as the examples (such as, "Fitting the Alternative Bard into Jade Stage, Dystopia, Dilandri, etc"  Maybe this Minstrel could be the first one?

[Ra-Tiel]

Addendum: what HD does the minstrel use? It doesn't say in the first post, but I assume a d6, like the bard? :huh:

[Higgs Boson]

[blockquote Ra-Tiel]What happens if a non-humanoid character like a star elf or a tiefling reaches level 20 in this class?[/blockquote]
[blockquote Soup Nazi]She is forever more treated as a fey rather than as a humanoid (or whatever her creature was prior to 20th level)[/blockquote]

[Epic Meepo]

I've never been a big fan of the various "apotheosis" capstone abilities. Perhaps fey apotheosis should only change the creature types of humanoids and monstrous humanoids, leaving other, stranger creature types unchanged. (Consider: a fey warforged is both mechanically confusing and kinda silly.)

[Ra-Tiel]

[...]

Ooops. I am more than a "little" tired, apparently.  :-|

[Higgs Boson]

Unforgiveable, Ra-Tiel :P . I'd agree with you, EpicMeepo, but the Fey Warforged is a bad example. I mean, who doesn't want to play as a Fey Warforged?

[Epic Meepo]

I mean, who doesn't want to play as a Fey Warforged?

Why, people who are playing Fey Turtles, of course. Yay, turtles! :fluffy: !turtle  :fluffy:

[Soup Nazi]

Just another thing I'd like to add. What happens if a non-humanoid character like a star elf or a tiefling reaches level 20 in this class?

IIRC from Savage Species, the outsider and undead types are already "the top of the food chain", so to speak, and can not be changed into other types. However, exactly this would happen with "fey apotheosis".

Perhaps you could sneak in a small sentence like "unless the character already has the fey, outsider, or undead type" just to eliminate any possible conflicts.

I stumbled upon this because for an upcoming FR campaign I'm seriously considering playing a star elf minstrel. (And yes, my DM-to-be also really likes the class! )

I already thought of that scenario. Take a second look at the wording of the apotheosis ability.

At 20th level, the minstrel becomes a magical creature. She is forever more treated as a fey rather than as a humanoid (or whatever her creature [type] was prior to 20th level), for the purpose of spells and magical effects. Hence forth her lyric invocations are treated as supernatural abilities. They are no longer subject to spell resistance or being dispelled by dispel magic. Her lyric invocations also no longer provoke attacks of opportunity, and never require Concentration checks. The saving throw DC against these effects increases to 10 + ½ her class level + her Charisma modifier. In all other respects, her lyric invocations remain the same.

Your type doesn't actually change to fey. You remain whatever creature type you were prior to the apotheosis, but you are treated as though you were a fey for the purpose of spells and effects (like charm person, dominate person, and so forth).

The perfect self ability of the monk functions the same way actually. Monk's don't actually become outsiders, they are simply treated like them for the resolution of certain effects.

On an unrelated note, I try to pretend that Savage Species doesn't exist. It was one of those strange books that came along during the transition of 3.0 to 3.5 and it has some serious flaws as far as mechanics are concerned. Not that I have anything at all against those who like the book...it's just not my cup-o'-tea.

This question is being posed mostly to Soup Nazi at the moment, but also can be directed towards anyone on the site who is good with crunch aspects and creating races and deities. I'm thinking it would be a neat idea to offer an "alternative classes" serial in the Guide. Something that basically replaces standard (core) classes with new, alternative classes, with good descriptions on how they can easily be fitted into other campaign settings. Perhaps we could even use CBG members' settings as the examples (such as, "Fitting the Alternative Bard into Jade Stage, Dystopia, Dilandri, etc" Maybe this Minstrel could be the first one?

I don't really have a problem with that. I say do with the minstrel as you will.

I've never been a big fan of the various "apotheosis" capstone abilities. Perhaps fey apotheosis should only change the creature types of humanoids and monstrous humanoids, leaving other, stranger creature types unchanged. (Consider: a fey warforged is both mechanically confusing and kinda silly.)

Luckily this doesn't actually change your creature type. Would it help if I called it "Touched by the Fey," or something else a little less misleading?

Perhaps turtle apotheosis,  ninja turtle apotheosis, or ninja turtle pirate dinosaur cowboy transformer apotheosis?

I hope I get enough time later to go back through this and make those changes and updates I had promised to make a couple days ago...work is not cutting me any slack today. Honestly, what is the world coming to, when you can't play with D&D mechanics on the clock?

[Epic Meepo]

Luckily this doesn't actually change your creature type. Would it help if I called it "Touched by the Fey," or something else a little less misleading?

Perhaps turtle apotheosis,  ninja turtle apotheosis, or ninja turtle pirate dinosaur cowboy transformer apotheosis? [/quote]
Turtle apotheosis and ninja turtle apotheosis would make great additions to the game. But ninja turtle pirate dinosaur cowboy transformer apotheosis? Now you're just being greedy.