The Campaign Builder's System?

[Ra-Tiel]

Ok, been thinking about and tinkering with my idea a bit more and came up with the following:

Classes
Expert
- hit die: d8
- focus die: d8
- skills known: 16
- skill points: 8
- base attack: average
- saves: Fort poor, Ref good, Will average
- weapon and armor: 8 simple weapons, light armor
Medium
- hit die: d4
- focus die: d12
- skills known: 8
- skill points: 4
- base attack: poor
- saves: Fort poor, Ref poor, Will good
- weapon and armor: 4 simple weapons, no armor
Warrior
- hit die: d12
- focus die: d4
- skills known: 4
- skill points: 2
- base attack: good
- saves: Fort good, Ref average, Will poor
- weapon and armor: all simple and martial weapons, all armor

Class talent trees
Expert
- Assassin: gain bonus damage against unaware or distracted opponents
- Diplomat: improve social skills and abilities
- Explorer: improve perception skills and abilities
- Scout: improve stealth and movement abilities
- Troubadour: gain music related invocations
Medium
- Clairsentient: gain precognitive abilities
- Icon: gain auras enhancing allies and hindering enemies
- Incarnate: infuse own body with mystical power
- Summoner: gain mystical companions
- Wizard: gain magical invocations
Warrior
- Commando: sacrifice damage for crippling effects
- Dervish: sacrifice accuracy for increased combat maneuverability
- Destroyer: ignore limited amount of hardness
- Dreadnought: gain bonus damage to all attacks
- Juggernaught: gain unbeatable damage reduction

Templates
Arcane
- bonus skills known: Concentration, Knowledge (arcane)
Civilized
- bonus skills known: Diplomacy, Gather Information
Divine
- bonus skills known: Knowledge (religion), Sense Motive
Martial
- bonus skills known: Concentration, Heal
Psionic
- bonus skills known: Autohypnosis, Knowledge (psionic)
Skilled
- bonus skills known: any 2
Wild
- bonus skills known: Knowledge (nature), Survival

Template talent trees
Arcane
- Enchanted: gain ability to use spell-completion/-trigger magic items
- Familiar: gain small personal magical companion
- Crafter: gain ability to create magic items
Civilized
- Connection: gain better connections to local organizations
- Dealer: gain bonuses when selling or buying equipment
- Negotiator: gain bonuses on all kinds of negotiations
Divine
- Lay on Hands: heal damage and other conditions with a touch
- Smite: gain powerful attack against undead and outsiders
- Turning: turn away undead and outsiders
Martial
- Armor specialist: gain bonuses for one type of armor
- Tactician: gain or grant bonuses by coordinating actions of others
- Weapon specialist: gain bonuses for one type of weapon
Psionic
- Enlightened: gain ability to use power-completion/-trigger psionic items
- Maker: gain ability to create psionic items
- Psicrystal: gain small personal psionic companion
Skilled
- Jack of all Trades: gain additional skills known and skill points
- Natural talent: gain bonuses for one skill
- Skill specialist: gain bonuses for skills relating to one key ability
Wild
- Companion: gain small personal animal companion
- Rage: gain rage ability
- Tracker: improve tracking skills and abilities

With a design like this, each character would have (without multiclassing at least) access to 8 different talent trees, giving him a total of (assuming 6 talents per tree) 48 available talents. If we decide to go with a straight 20 level design, he could select 10 from this list (or 15 when using 30 level classes). If we add a feat called "Extra Talent" to the bonus feat list of every class, a character could have 20 (respectively 30) talents, but at the expense of all his bonus feats.

Another idea (and here comes that "focus" into play) was to make each talent have a "passive" bonus and an "active" bonus. The passive bonus would be a minor, most likely static bonus to something (damage, skill, AC, etc) and cost nothing. The active bonus would provide a much greater bonus (eg 1d6 bonus damage instead of 1 point, etc) but cost "focus points" per use or per round it is active. This focus idea could also be used to give Concentration a new usage, allowing a character to once per encounter recover a number of focus points equal to his Concentration skill check result (up to his normal maximum).

The costs would depend on the talent and its level. For example, if we have a martial warrior with 4 talents in the "dreadnought" tree. The passive bonus would be a straight 4 points bonus to all damage rolls. The active bonus could be anything from 1d6 to 4d6 bonus damage, but each attack would cost a number of focus points equal to the number of bonus dice times 2. Thus if he made 3 attacks and went for a +3d6 bonus, each attack would cost him 3*2 = 6 focus, for a total of 18 focus for his full attack.

Focus would be recovered on a "per hour" base, being imho a good compromise between "per day" and "per encounter", as it also requires some sort of forethough on the players' part (always a good thing... well... depends on the players :P ), and deals with the problem of using "per encounter" abilities out of encounters (like using mobility based Bo9S maneuvers to overcome natural obstacles or something).

As for the classes, my previous idea with "magus, priest, psion" was crap. It was basically three different classes doing exactly the same thing. Of course, with the current suggestion, there are only certain "concepts" available. A cleric would be a "divine medium", while a psion would be a "psionic medium". A barbarian would be a "wild warrior", a paladin would be a "divine warrior", a bard would be a "civilized expert", a ranger would be a "wild expert", and a warmage would be a "martial medium". Somehow reminds me of the naming conventions from the "Titan Quest" crpg, although I didn't have that in mind when I wrote that up.

Just some random thoughts. :D

[Higgs Boson]

Sounds good.

[Stargate525]

So horribly tired... Will investigate in morning...

[~Kalin~]

ive recently been throwing around the idea that a characters "HP" is calculated not just by class but also race, as ive always had a problem with a titan sorcerer having around the same "HP" as a elven sorcerer despite their differences.



Also the talent trees remind me of Szatany's ultimate classes that were originally posted on the WOTC boards.

[Higgs Boson]

[blockquote ~Kalin~]ive recently been throwing around the idea that a characters "HP" is calculated not just by class but also race, as ive always had a problem with a titan sorcerer having around the same "HP" as a elven sorcerer despite their differences.[/blockquote]

Well, that should be solved by the Constitution modifiers. Elf gets -2, now do you mean Giant? or Titan? Cause there's a big diference.

[Ra-Tiel]

[blockquote ~Kalin~]ive recently been throwing around the idea that a characters "HP" is calculated not just by class but also race, as ive always had a problem with a titan sorcerer having around the same "HP" as a elven sorcerer despite their differences.[/blockquote]

Well, that should be solved by the Constitution modifiers. Elf gets -2, now do you mean Giant? or Titan? Cause there's a big diference.

Although I never played it, the "Farscape d20" system had a very good approach on this one. The hit die was dependent on race, with class merely giving a - more or less - big bonus to hit points. Constitution and feats worked normally.

For the races and classes from the SRD it could look like the following.
[table=Races]
[tr][th]Race[/th][th]HD[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Dwarf[/td][td]d10[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Elf[/td][td]d6[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Gnome[/td][td]d8[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Half-Elf[/td][td]d8[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Half-Orc[/td][td]d10[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Halfling[/td][td]d6[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Human[/td][td]d8[/td][/tr]
[/table]
[table=Classes]
[tr][th]Class[/th][th]HP bonus[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Barbarian[/td][td]+6[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Bard[/td][td]+3[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Cleric[/td][td]+4[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Druid[/td][td]+4[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Fighter[/td][td]+5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Monk[/td][td]+4[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Paladin[/td][td]+5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Ranger[/td][td]+4[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Rogue[/td][td]+3[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Sorcerer[/td][td]+2[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Wizard[/td][td]+2[/td][/tr]
[/table]
Just a "quick and dirty" conversion that would of course need some finetuning and testing, but it should get the basic idea across. :)

[beejazz]

Hmmm... Lacking lots of time for reasons undisclosed, I shall simply stir the pot and be off again.

I'm making a system myself right now, with a semi-unique take on character building that has levels, but no classes.

Having seen both Star Wars Saga (level-based skill progress) and Perfect 20 (a class builder that lets you pick the progress rate of BAB and saves and things) I decided to combine the concepts. Anything and everything that could progress with levels is a skill that will progress faster if you're trained and slower if you're not. All feat or talent trees are available to anybody.

Thanks to limited resources, people still need to pick a role. But getting rid of arbitrary class restrictions (this class gets these skills and these talents only) allows them to pick a rather more flexible role.

Just a thought. I have to confess beyond that my system might be more crunch than you currently seek.

[Ra-Tiel]

Just some more quick ideas, but this is what the basic warrior talent trees could look like. Focus cost always refers to using the active bonus (the passive bonus is always active at no costs). To balance it out, one idea was to base the maximum number of simultaneously active allowed talents on character level to prevent "piling up" of smaller bonuses.
[table=Maximum number of active talents]
[tr][th]Character level[/th][th]Active talents[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]1-5[/td][td]1[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]6-10[/td][td]2[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]11-15[/td][td]3[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]16-20[/td][td]4[/td][/tr]
[tr][td][/td][td][/td][/tr]
[/table]

Anyways, the talent trees.

Commando Talent Tree (Warrior)
Commando I
- Prerequisites: -.
- Passive bonus: -2 to damage rolls, damaging attack imposes -1 penalty to target's attack rolls, skill checks and saves for one round.
- Active bonus: -2 to damage rolls, damaging attack can throw target prone (Fort save DC 10 + 1/2 warrior level + Strength modifier negates).
- Focus cost: 1 focus point per attack.
Commando II
- Prerequisites: Commando I.
- Passive bonus: -4 to damage rolls, damaging attack imposes -2 penalty to target's attack rolls, skill checks and saves for one round.
- Active bonus: -4 to damage rolls, damaging attack can sicken target (Fort save DC 10 + 1/2 warrior level + Strength modifier negates) for one round.
- Focus cost: 2 focus points per attack.
Commando III
- Prerequisites: Commando II.
- Passive bonus: -6 to damage rolls, damaging attack imposes -3 penalty to target's attack rolls, skill checks and saves for one round.
- Active bonus: -6 to damage rolls, damaging attack can daze target (Fort save DC 10 + 1/2 warrior level + Strength modifier negates) for one round.
- Focus cost: 3 focus points per attack.
Commando IV
- Prerequisites: Commando III.
- Passive bonus: -8 to damage rolls, damaging attack imposes -4 penalty to target's attack rolls, skill checks and saves for one round.
- Active bonus: -8 to damage rolls, damaging attack can stun target (Fort save DC 10 + 1/2 warrior level + Strength modifier negates) for one round.
- Focus cost: 4 focus points per attack.
Commando V
- Prerequisites: Commando IV.
- Passive bonus: -10 to damage rolls, damaging attack imposes -5 penalty to target's attack rolls, skill checks and saves for one round.
- Active bonus: -10 to damage rolls, damaging attack can make target nauseated (Fort save DC 10 + 1/2 warrior level + Strength modifier negates) for one round.
- Focus cost: 5 focus points per attack.
Commando VI
- Prerequisites: Commando V.
- Passive bonus: -12 to damage rolls, damaging attack imposes -6 penalty to target's attack rolls, skill checks and saves for one round.
- Active bonus: -12 to damage rolls, damaging attack can paralyze target (Fort save DC 10 + 1/2 warrior level + Strength modifier negates) for one round.
- Focus cost: 6 focus points per attack.

Dervish Talent Tree (Warrior)
Dervish I
- Prerequisites: -.
- Passive bonus: -1 to attack rolls, +1 to initiative checks and to AC vs AoO.
- Active bonus: -1 to attack rolls, +3 to AC vs AoO, +5ft speed.
- Focus cost: 1 focus point per round.
Dervish II
- Prerequisites: Dervish I.
- Passive bonus: -2 to attack rolls, +2 to initiative checks and to AC vs AoO.
- Active bonus: -2 to attack rolls, +6 to AC vs AoO, +10ft speed.
- Focus cost: 2 focus points per round.
Dervish III
- Prerequisites: Dervish II.
- Passive bonus: -3 to attack rolls, +3 to initiative checks and to AC vs AoO.
- Active bonus: -3 to attack rolls, +9 to AC vs AoO, +15ft speed.
- Focus cost: 3 focus points per round.
Dervish IV
- Prerequisites: Dervish III.
- Passive bonus: -4 to attack rolls, +4 to initiative checks and to AC vs AoO.
- Active bonus: -4 to attack rolls, +12 to AC vs AoO, +20ft speed.
- Focus cost: 4 focus points per round.
Dervish V
- Prerequisites: Dervish IV.
- Passive bonus: -5 to attack rolls, +5 to initiative checks and to AC vs AoO.
- Active bonus: -5 to attack rolls, +15 to AC vs AoO, +25ft speed.
- Focus cost: 5 focus points per round.
Dervish VI
- Prerequisites: Dervish V.
- Passive bonus: -6 to attack rolls, +6 to initiative checks and to AC vs AoO.
- Active bonus: -6 to attack rolls, +18 to AC vs AoO, +30ft speed.
- Focus cost: 6 focus points per round.

Dreadnought Talent Tree (Warrior)
Dreadnought I
- Prerequisites: -.
- Passive bonus: You deal 1 bonus damage point with all attacks.
- Active bonus: You deal 1d6 bonus damage points with all attacks.
- Focus cost: 1 focus point per attack.
Dreadnought II
- Prerequisites: Dreadnought I.
- Passive bonus: You deal 2 bonus damage points with all attacks.
- Active bonus: You deal 2d6 bonus damage points with all attacks.
- Focus cost: 2 focus points per attack.
Dreadnought III
- Prerequisites: Dreadnought II.
- Passive bonus: You deal 3 bonus damage points with all attacks.
- Active bonus: You deal 3d6 bonus damage points with all attacks.
- Focus cost: 3 focus points per attack.
Dreadnought IV
- Prerequisites: Dreadnought III.
- Passive bonus: You deal 4 bonus damage points with all attacks.
- Active bonus: You deal 4d6 bonus damage points with all attacks.
- Focus cost: 4 focus points per attack.
Dreadnought V
- Prerequisites: Dreadnought IV.
- Passive bonus: You deal 5 bonus damage points with all attacks.
- Active bonus: You deal 5d6 bonus damage points with all attacks.
- Focus cost: 5 focus points per attack.
Dreadnought VI
- Prerequisites: Dreadnought V.
- Passive bonus: You deal 6 bonus damage points with all attacks.
- Active bonus: You deal 6d6 bonus damage points with all attacks.
- Focus cost: 6 focus points per attack.

Destroyer Talent Tree (Warrior)
Destroyer I
- Prerequisites: -.
- Passive bonus: You ignore 1 point of hardness and any DR with all attacks.
- Active bonus: You ignore 3 points of hardness and any DR with all attacks.
- Focus cost: 1 focus point per attack.
Destroyer II
- Prerequisites: Destroyer I.
- Passive bonus: You ignore 2 points of hardness and any DR with all attacks.
- Active bonus: You ignore 6 points of hardness and any DR with all attacks.
- Focus cost: 2 focus points per attack.
Destroyer III
- Prerequisites: Destroyer II.
- Passive bonus: You ignore 3 points of hardness and any DR with all attacks.
- Active bonus: You ignore 9 points of hardness and any DR with all attacks.
- Focus cost: 3 focus points per attack.
Destroyer IV
- Prerequisites: Destroyer III.
- Passive bonus: You ignore 4 points of hardness and any DR with all attacks.
- Active bonus: You ignore 12 points of hardness and any DR with all attacks.
- Focus cost: 4 focus points per attack.
Destroyer V
- Prerequisites: Destroyer IV.
- Passive bonus: You ignore 5 points of hardness and any DR with all attacks.
- Active bonus: You ignore 15 points of hardness and any DR with all attacks.
- Focus cost: 5 focus points per attack.
Destroyer VI
- Prerequisites: Destroyer V.
- Passive bonus: You ignore 6 points of hardness and any DR with all attacks.
- Active bonus: You ignore 18 points of hardness and any DR with all attacks.
- Focus cost: 6 focus points per attack.

Juggernaught Talent Tree (Warrior)
Juggernaught I
- Prerequisites: -.
- Passive bonus: You gain DR 1/-.
- Active bonus: You gain DR 3/-.
- Focus cost: 1 focus point per round.
Juggernaught II
- Prerequisites: Juggernaught I.
- Passive bonus: You gain DR 2/-.
- Active bonus: You gain DR 6/-.
- Focus cost: 2 focus points per round.
Juggernaught III
- Prerequisites: Juggernaught II.
- Passive bonus: You gain DR 3/-.
- Active bonus: You gain DR 9/-.
- Focus cost: 3 focus points per round.
Juggernaught IV
- Prerequisites: Juggernaught III.
- Passive bonus: You gain DR 4/-.
- Active bonus: You gain DR 12/-.
- Focus cost: 4 focus points per round.
Juggernaught V
- Prerequisites: Juggernaught IV.
- Passive bonus: You gain DR 5/-.
- Active bonus: You gain DR 15/-.
- Focus cost: 5 focus points per round.
Juggernaught VI
- Prerequisites: Juggernaught V.
- Passive bonus: You gain DR 6/-.
- Active bonus: You gain DR 18/-.
- Focus cost: 6 focus points per round.

[Stargate525]

That's really cool. The only thing I see is that nothing on there is really very flavorful. Maybe that'll go away with the templates...

[Ra-Tiel]

That's really cool.

Thanks. :D

The only thing I see is that nothing on there is really very flavorful. Maybe that'll go away with the templates...

What would you mean with "flavorful"? I'm just describing the raw mechanics here. Whether a warrior gains eg the damage bonus from the dreadnought talent tree from the his superior weapon techniques, his passionate dedication to justice, or the prophecies of the Triumvirate Oracle is up to the player and the DM. I'm a strict opponent of mixing fluff and crunch (which is one reason why I find the standard Greyhawk setting in the core books horrible :-/ ), therefore my descriptions won't get any more flavorful than that. ;)

Or do you mean more "creative" abilities? The problem with creative abilities is that they are often very difficult to judge balance-wise. At least for the "easy" classes (warrior and expert), I'm sticking with more or less linearily advancing abilities (read: cost and benefit increase at a linear rate) - for now. ;)

I already have some ideas for the medium class, especially for the wizard talent tree. However, I need to think about it some more. The basic idea is that each time a medium selects a talent from the wizard talent tree, he gets to select 3 spells of a level equal to or less than the current number of talents from the wizard talent tree (eg when you have learned the tree up to "wizard III" you could select 3 spells of level 3 or lower). These spells become invocations usable at will. XP costs still apply, expensive material components are translated into an XP component at a 5:1 ratio, while an expensive focus component becomes an XP component at a 10:1 ratio. The invocation costs a number of focus points equal to the square of the equivalent spell (eg a level 4 spell invocation will cost 16 focus points) and function at the minimum caster level. The medium can increase the effective caster level, but each additional caster level costs 1 extra focus point (up to a maximum equal to the medium's class level).

This would leave a medium (in the role of the primary caster) with 18 invocations and a maximum "spell" level of 6 (just before the imho broken stuff comes in). An invocation of the highest level would have a base cost of 36 focus points, and cast at caster level 20 would require a total focus point expenditure of 36(base) + [ 20(effective caster level) - 11(minimum caster level)] = 45(total). Considering a level 20 medium will have on average 12 + 19*6.5 + 20*Charisma mod focus points (assuming a 26 Charisma makes this 295 focus points), this leaves the character with less than 7 invocations of the highest level at maximum power.

As for the passive bonus, I was thinking of something along these lines. Each time you take a "wizard" talent, you get one "binding slot" into which you can bind one of your invocations. You can no longer use this invocation, but now gain a bonus to certain traits dependent on the school of the invocation. The magnitude of the bonus would be based on the equivalent spell level, ranging from 1 to 6. Possible effects could be:
- Abjuration: +X enhancement bonus to AC
- Conjuration: fast healing X
- Divination: +X enhancement bonus to Spot, Listen, Search, Initiative, Ref saves
- Enchantment: +X enhancement bonus to Diplomacy, Gather information, Sense Motive, Intimidate, Will saves
- Evocation: +X bonus elemental damage to all attacks, as well as resistance 5*X to one element (same as bonus damage), can select element on the fly
- Illusion: +X enhancement bonus to Bluff, Forgery, Hide, Move Silently, miss chance 5*X% when not moving (not even 5ft steps)
- Necromancy: +X enhancement bonus to Fort saves, gain blindsense 5*Xft only working on living creatures (requires concentration)
- Transmutation: +X enhancement bonus to any single ability score, can select ability on the fly, does not modify save DCs only ability checks, skill checks, attack rolls, saving throws
- Universal: +X enhancement bonus to all saves

It seems reasonable. This would allow a player to select his abilities from all splatbooks the DM allows, and saves us the hassle of rewriting some thousand spells. Also, the options are quite limited compared to standard DnD casting, both in quantity and quality. On the other hand, the character is not limited by spells per day, and dependent on the exact focus recovery method - which I still have to think about - could throw his invocations all day long. Also, the passive bonus is a trade-off: loose invocations but gain abilities that replace magical items.

I think my ideas need some serious crunching. :P

[Ra-Tiel]

While compiling some of my ideas into a (yet unfinished) PDF, I got yet another idea worth considering. Why not drop classes altogether, and instead allow the player to "build" his own base class with a priority system similar to 2ed/3ed Shadowrun? What do you think of the following?

Code Select Expand

Feature         poor            average         good
-------------------------------------------------------
Base attack     1/2 HD          3/4 HD          1/1 HD
Fort save       0-6             1-9             2-12
Ref save        0-6             1-9             2-12
Will save       0-6             1-9             2-12
Skills known    8               12              16
Skillpoints     4               6               8
Hit die         d4              d8              d12
Focus die       d4              d8              d12

A player gets to select 2 options from "good", and 3 each from "average" and "poor", thus being able to build the basic class to his wishes instead of being forced into stereotypes ("fighters always have poor will saves", "rogues always have good skills", etc). Of course, one could build the "classical" archetypes as well with it.

Comments? Suggestions? Ideas?

[~Kalin~]

While compiling some of my ideas into a (yet unfinished) PDF, I got yet another idea worth considering. Why not drop classes altogether, and instead allow the player to "build" his own base class with a priority system similar to 2ed/3ed Shadowrun? What do you think of the following?

Code Select Expand

Feature         poor            average         good
-------------------------------------------------------
Base attack     1/2 HD          3/4 HD          1/1 HD
Fort save       0-6             1-9             2-12
Ref save        0-6             1-9             2-12
Will save       0-6             1-9             2-12
Skills known    8               12              16
Skillpoints     4               6               8
Hit die         d4              d8              d12
Focus die       d4              d8              d12

A player gets to select 2 options from "good", and 3 each from "average" and "poor", thus being able to build the basic class to his wishes instead of being forced into stereotypes ("fighters always have poor will saves", "rogues always have good skills", etc). Of course, one could build the "classical" archetypes as well with it.

Comments? Suggestions? Ideas?

How would bonus feats and progession of a character work? would they all have access to a bonus feat at the same level ?

[Ra-Tiel]

How would bonus feats and progession of a character work? would they all have access to a bonus feat at the same level ?

Basically, yes. Each character would get a talent at all odd levels (1,3,5,...) and a bonus feat at all even levels (2,4,6,...). With a feat available that would allow a character to gain a talent instead.

But that's just an idea. It doesn't have to work that way. ;)

[Stargate525]

I think that we should expand it to a five-point system; poor, bad, average, good, and excellent. Right now, for instance, you can't choose the d10 or d6 as a hit die.

[Atlantis]

i agree with stargate.what is focus die?