Magic Punk

[Ra-Tiel]

I never said it would be easy, but to address some of your questions:  

Well, what is easy after all? ;)

1. I prefer the wear down your shields method. In my opinion, that is the way to go (like Star Trek). Shields are controlled by wizards who cast spells similar to Mage Armor, this is just one of the many ways a wizards can upgrade and enchant a spaceship.

As said, this is prone to be a bookkeeping nightmare. Imagine the characters escorting a trade convoi of 4 heavy cargo haulers with their small frigate, the other escort ships are 5 light starfighters, and then 8 raider ships attack. You'd have to keep track of the current shield points of 18 ships, let alone the respective recharge rates. Either that, or space combats are so brutal that recharge in combat doesn't matter, but then why bother with it at all?

My personal favorite would be the AC or DR variant. If you wanted to implement a continual "wear down", you could always say that every time the shields are "breached" (read, a hit is scored despite the AC bonus or the ship takes damage despite the DR), the bonus is reduced by 1. Or that shields can only be kept active for a limited amount of time before some capacitor or generator needs to recharge or cooldown or whatever.

The AC/DR variant also solves the problem of "space debris". I can imagine that it hurts like hell if you fly with 50000mph into some satellite or small asteroid. So, the ship would (or rather should, if we assume an even remotely "realistic" approach) take damage each round it moves faster than some threshold, as small debris and other particles crash into its shields and hull with extreme force. If you have a shield point variant for shields you'd have to keep track of the recharge and current points everytime the ship moved faster than some hundred miles per hour.

2. FTL is brought to you thanks to Vanic, god of star travel. Priests pray to Vanic, who blesses the priest with navigational skills as well as the ability to travel faster than light speed. If you remember, it is impossible to go faster than the speed of light. So there fore, without having to use a whole bunch of technobabble about subspace and so on, I use the idea of magic. Vanic allows humans to travel faster than the speed of light. Every ship has at least one wizard or priest. I see these characters as being able to upgrade weapons, vehicles (both ground vehicles and starships) etc.

This is imho another problem. You basically place the question of "where do we go when how fast" completely into the GM's hands. After all, the players have no choice to do otherwise when some omnipotent and -scient god controls and navigates all interplanetar and -stellar travel. If by all means star travel must have to do something with magic, why not go a similar route as DragonStar did? Each interstellar space ship has a "starcaster" on board, a huge magical device. Its function is quite simple, when activated it casts some sort of "teleport" spell on the whole ship, moving it instantly from one place to another. As with the normal teleport, there is a chance to arrive off-target, and it gets worse the farther you attempt to "jump".

For now I am going to say that these ships are traveling through normal space, the only thing saving them from crashing into each other is the holy might of Vanic, only a powerful omnipotent god could keep track of billions of starships in the universe.

See my point above. Also, it's completely unnecessary to keep track of all ships everywhere at the same time, because in most normal circumstances you will never interact with more than 0.000000000001% of all currently flying ships in the whole universe. Typically, you'd only have to track ships in your close proximity, eg a lightsecond or -minute for STL travel; at most you would be tracking all ships in the planet's atmosphere/orbit, and if all ropes are cut you track all ships in the local solarsystem. And this is something even today's computers would be able to do. So, no need for a god to fly from one planet to another in the same system.

And for FTL travel it depends.

[Gnomemaster]

Well, as I was lying in bed last night, I thought about the shields. In a futuristic game it seems that all the weapons deal a lot of damage (3d8 sometimes) that can spell certain doom for low level characters, so I thought that these shields can act as extra HP. the lowest would be 25, the kind of shield a low level character might wear, and when he is shot up, the shield shimmers and takes the damage. I don't think it is too much paperwork. You are already keeping track of HP, all this does is add a little bonus. The recharging won't happen. In my opinion you are in combat for all of 5 rounds on average, that's fifteen seconds (saying that every round is three seconds long) so your personal shield won't have time to recharge. Out of combat it recharges over time (just like you heal over time) and of course spells can be cast on the shield.

FTL travel: It is NOT controlled by the DM, I probably didn't explain myself properly (I do that) In star wars you have to plot the course using a computer so that you don't crash into asteroids, planets, etc. Praying to Vanic is similar. The idea I had would be for a priest to sacrifice a spell to Vanic, and depending on it's level depends on how fast you can go. The Player's choose where they go, and in my opinion it doesn't really matter how long it takes the players to get from point A to point B, the DM will speed up the travel time anyways.

The Teleport Idea is pretty good, I may use it, but one thing I want to avoid is people saying "Wow, this is a cool game, it's a lot like Dragonstar, only without dragons."

[Ra-Tiel]

Well, as I was lying in bed last night, I thought about the shields. In a futuristic game it seems that all the weapons deal a lot of damage (3d8 sometimes) that can spell certain doom for low level characters, so I thought that these shields can act as extra HP. the lowest would be 25, the kind of shield a low level character might wear, and when he is shot up, the shield shimmers and takes the damage. I don't think it is too much paperwork. You are already keeping track of HP, all this does is add a little bonus. The recharging won't happen. In my opinion you are in combat for all of 5 rounds on average, that's fifteen seconds (saying that every round is three seconds long) so your personal shield won't have time to recharge. Out of combat it recharges over time (just like you heal over time) and of course spells can be cast on the shield.

Ok, some ideas. 3d8 hit on average for 13.5 points of damage. So after an average of 2 hits your shield is already gone. This is what I meant with "possibly useless". Especially in a fight against multiple opponents shields will do null for the characters. Yeah, the tank dies in round 3 instead of round 2. ;) If you made [body]shields give DR or an AC bonus, it would benefit characters much more.

However, making shields have "virtual HPs" makes for some very easy implementation. Just treat shieldbelts as universal (psionic) items that can manifest vigor 3/day or something. The ML used by the item would be the "shield rating", ranging from 1 to 20, obviously.

FTL travel: It is NOT controlled by the DM, I probably didn't explain myself properly (I do that) In star wars you have to plot the course using a computer so that you don't crash into asteroids, planets, etc. Praying to Vanic is similar. The idea I had would be for a priest to sacrifice a spell to Vanic, and depending on it's level depends on how fast you can go. The Player's choose where they go, and in my opinion it doesn't really matter how long it takes the players to get from point A to point B, the DM will speed up the travel time anyways.

I see. Interesting idea. However, keying FTL travel to a god instead of technology always brings up the "how can HE let that happen?" thing. Civil wars, invasions, desasters where interstellar cargo haulers full with extremly radioactive waste crash on cities, etc. Either the god is an (sorry) utter asshole who gives a crap about his followers, or you'd have to handwaive every such occurance.

It also removes the "engine failure" element from the DM's repertoire. If FTL travel is based on technology, one could always sabotage the engine, or a critical hit in combat could damage it and cause it to fail some minutes after the party got away from the battle, leaving them temporarily stranded where the DM wants them to be. If a god moves each ship with his power in FTL travel, however, the only explaination for such an event would be "because Vanic sucks".

The Teleport Idea is pretty good, I may use it, but one thing I want to avoid is people saying "Wow, this is a cool game, it's a lot like Dragonstar, only without dragons."

There are always alternatives. You could, for example, construct huge gates that emulate a teleportation circle (similar to ring gates, but orders of magnitude larger), or a FTL engine that uses plane shift instead of teleport. You could use "anchor gates" that allow only origin-based travel instead of destination-based travel (read: each ship has a special artifact onboard that can be fed with a "origin key"; each key is bound to a specific gate; if the ship with an activated key flies through any "anchor gate", it can use the key to jump back to the key's original gate, mimicking the instant summons spell).

[Gnomemaster]

As for engine failure, you could always kill the priest.

So what's the deal? do you just need to naysay everything? Don't get me wrong, it's helpful, but it's getting a bit ridiculous. We have been going back and forth now for the better part of a day over shields and engines, I shudder to think about going over anything more complex with you. It could take weeks! I also feel you are thinking in the confined boxes of DnD. This game isn't about technology that uses magic (like plane shift). I'm going to actually write some of this up, and 25 is a low level shield. I was picturing closer to 100-200 for higher levels.

[Ra-Tiel]

As for engine failure, you could always kill the priest.

Now that's definitively an alternative. Less so, however, if the priest happens to be a PC. :-|

So what's the deal? do you just need to naysay everything? Don't get me wrong, it's helpful, but it's getting a bit ridiculous.

How comes? Because I'm pointing out the things I could imagine being important to the setting? The things that could throw up problems in game?

We have been going back and forth now for the better part of a day over shields and engines, I shudder to think about going over anything more complex with you.

So what? Just as a reminder, these aspects of the game have a major influence on your setting's flavor. Whether shields can stop all but the most powerful weapons (of a certain level), or if you can bring down the most powerful shield by just throwing enough stones at it or not, whether FTL travel can happen without someone making magic-mojo and is instant or not, all that poses the basics for your setting. A setting where travelling long distances is dangerous, complicated, and longwinded has a completely different feel than one where FTL travel is fast, easy, and safe. Same thing goes for shielding, medical tech, daily life, provisioning of food, trading, etc.

It could take weeks!

Again, so what? Are there some mafiosi pointing a gun at your head, threatening to kill you if you haven't finished the setting by next week? :?: Believe me, I've seen dozens of "hey, this sounds cool, let's make a setting of it" endeavors die a silent, slow death because one tried to force-march the development. To implement some mechanics just to find out that it's horrible to use in game. Or to make background decisions just to find out that it rather scares players away from the plot instead of attracting them.

If you think you can stomp a cool, playable, cyberpunk w/ magic setting out of the ground in no time, more power to you.

I also feel you are thinking in the confined boxes of DnD.

Trust me, I barely know one (either in real life nor on any message board) who has tinkered with more aspects of the d20 system than me. And that's not an exaggeration. If you think I'd be "thinking in the confined boxes of DnD", you might want to take a look at the mechanics of the Worldgate Campaign Setting, or some of my suggestions in the "Campaign Builders' Setting" thread.

This game isn't about technology that uses magic (like plane shift).

Well, but this

Would anyone be interested in a setting that combines futuristic cyberpunk with magic? [...]

looked like exactly that to me. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I'm going to actually write some of this up, and 25 is a low level shield. I was picturing closer to 100-200 for higher levels.

Of course, please go ahead.

[Gnomemaster]

*sigh* I'm sorry, I should actually be thanking you, you've given me a lot to think about.

My idea for armor is that the players have two components. An energy shield that takes so many hits then fizzles out. There are going to be different ratings of shields, then the players wear power armor which grants DR and AC. When the shields are active, your power armor DR and AC don't apply (So you use your touch AC) then once the shield gives out you have to rely on your Steel-ceramic armor. Kinda like Halo, how Master Chief has a shield and Armor you know?

The Star Caster concept and space travel: I see Priests who can cast buffs on a ship, or repair parts of the ship with spells. To them, ship maintenance is part of their religion.  When they turn to the engine shrine (which must be fueled daily with at least one spell to operate at sub-light speeds) This to me is the game mechanic behind ship fuel. I think the spell might be an Osiron, and basically powers a ship for a short while (a day of flying around at 75% of the speed of light) then maybe more powerful spells can power it longer. The Priest then must sacrifice a spell slot of any level to travel at warp speeds, depending on the level depends on the speeds and how far it can fly.

Then I see the classes coming out like this: Fighter, Wizard and Sorcerer, Cleric, Rogue, Ranger, Druid (I have some fun ideas for that), Barbarian, Paladin (Some more fun ideas), and monk. The only class I want to drop is the Bard and maybe the Barbarian, although I can see where the Barbarian can work out.

Then I will have a few prestige classes, new spells, and of course lots and lots of Magitech.

[Ra-Tiel]

*sigh* I'm sorry, I should actually be thanking you, you've given me a lot to think about.  

Awww, no worries. I'm fine. :D

My idea for armor is that the players have two components. An energy shield that takes so many hits then fizzles out. There are going to be different ratings of shields, then the players wear power armor which grants DR and AC. When the shields are active, your power armor DR and AC don't apply (So you use your touch AC) then once the shield gives out you have to rely on your Steel-ceramic armor. Kinda like Halo, how Master Chief has a shield and Armor you know?  

Ahh, now that's more information to work with. ;)

A similar idea has been used in the "Fading Suns" rpg. There were also personal shields, but those worked different. First, each shield could only be activated a certain number of times (10 for the weakest, 25 for the most powerful ones). Second, a shield only became active once a certain minimum amount of energy (read damage) entered its field. Third, the shield completely negated the damage unless it was higher than a given threshold (in that case it merely reduced the damage, working like DnD DR). Fourth, one could not wear thick armor under shields, as the shield needed to be closely layered to the body to work; however, the more powerful shields had a greater field of operation and allowed thicker armor to be worn.

The Star Caster concept and space travel: I see Priests who can cast buffs on a ship, or repair parts of the ship with spells. To them, ship maintenance is part of their religion.  When they turn to the engine shrine (which must be fueled daily with at least one spell to operate at sub-light speeds) This to me is the game mechanic behind ship fuel. I think the spell might be an Osiron, and basically powers a ship for a short while (a day of flying around at 75% of the speed of light) then maybe more powerful spells can power it longer. The Priest then must sacrifice a spell slot of any level to travel at warp speeds, depending on the level depends on the speeds and how far it can fly.  

Now I see where you're going. ;) My suggestion, however, would still be to work this into some artifact or other "magitech" device and not make it happen mysteriously. If you wanted to add some creepy feeling to the religion, you could eg require the priest to give some of his own blood when powering the ship's engines ("...and the fuel that drives my systems shall thus drive thy systems..."). Also, how about this:

Then I see the classes coming out like this: Fighter, Wizard and Sorcerer, Cleric, Rogue, Ranger, Druid (I have some fun ideas for that), Barbarian, Paladin (Some more fun ideas), and monk. The only class I want to drop is the Bard and maybe the Barbarian, although I can see where the Barbarian can work out.

Then I will have a few prestige classes, new spells, and of course lots and lots of Magitech.

I'm really curious on your ideas for classes. :) Keep 'em coming! :D

[Gnomemaster]

Well, classes represent archetypes in fantasy, I want those classes to represent archetypes in my Universe.

A Fighter is the soldier character, they can choose to specialized in combat (both ranged or melee) or train as pilots (taking piloting feats)

A Rogue represents not only the thief, but could also be the pilot. Rogue get a lot of skills and could apply those toward piloting.

A Cleric is not only the healer but also the engineer aboard the ship. They also preserve the crew from demonic threats.

A Wizard/Sorcerer controls a lot of the weaponry aboard a ship and also can enchant weapons (imagine firing molten bullets)

Paladins are the militant arms of the religions, they lead giant crusades across planets and can choose a speeder or motorcycle as their mount instead of just animals.

Rangers are bounty hunters and sometimes law enforcement. They also tend to serve as soldiers in the planetary legions. Rangers can also be alien assassins.

Monks train in combat as well as the paths toward enlightenment, this can be a hard one to implement. Any suggestions?

 

[Stargate525]

Personally, I would make your ships run off of a variant of the VP/WP system, where the VP is the shield, and WP is the ship itself.

This looks very interesting. I've got a suggestion about the 'engine'; What if the cleric's holy symbol was this monstrosity of an altar, and the more damaged it is, the worse it performs.

Also, about how the God controls space travel, to get around the 'how does he let this happen?' problem, you could make it so that it was some sort of ancient pact, and he's duty-bound to honor his end of the bargain, no matter what the purpose is?

[Gnomemaster]

I like the idea of the altar, I would probably take that and run with it. If you remember the engine rooms in Star Trek, I see something similar only it is a huge altar which is the focus for all of the magical upgrades a ship can receive. I would probably make it the center of the ship, that area would be called the Chapel of the ship, where not only do the crew members go to pray, but the Chaplain can help keep the ship running.

[Gnomemaster]

Okay, I believe I have enough feedback now to start a true and real thread. The thread's name will be "Universe" (The playtest name for my game)

I will begin writing for Universe as though I was writing a Player's Handbook. One of my favorite sourcebooks has to be The Player's Guide to Eberron. Everything is broken up into delicious bite sized bits, so that's what I'm going to work with first.

Most of my information concerning important parts of the game will be written like those small articles, I will also include a section about building a Universe characters. keep in mind that I will hold off on writing too much crunch for now, I've decided to not make any big decisions until 4th edition comes out, just know that I will probably follow that. For now I will work on the peoples, planets, factions, gods, and some of the magitech of the Universe.

[Gnomemaster]

OK, so I have been doing a bit of work on this setting and hope to have two threads moving, one for my posting and one for discussion (this thread) and something that I want some feedback on is my idea for how classes will work.

As I work more and more on this I am moving farther and farther away from d20 and that excites me. What I want is for the games to have 4 levels of play: heroic, which are adventures that have a very localized area, like a large city or group of small towns. Superheroic, which is a worldwide adventure that spans several cities or perhaps a huge hive-city. Legendary which would encompass entire solar systems, and finally epic that would span galaxies.

Each of these levels of play allow for classes, what I am trying to do is shorten down on the time it takes to create a character, I am also shortening the class system. My classes are going to be five levels or so, and these are going to be very specialized classes (think prestige classes) each with their own individual spell lists and spell points (no more vancian system).

http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?37487.last

Go there to see a little bit about what I am talking about. I hope to do a bunch of these that have to do with my science fantasy universe.

It's a bit tough because I am not only re-doing classes but also spells. I hope to have every class use spells, even fighters and rogues, however those types of spells will seem more like feats or other powers. (Such as a fighter-type of character might get a spell that allows him to rage for a little while.)

It's similar to the star wars game where other characters can tap into force abilities.

Let me know what you think, Ra-Tiel I miss your comments.

The Gnomemaster

[Lmns Crn]

Monks train in combat as well as the paths toward enlightenment, this can be a hard one to implement. Any suggestions?

What if enlightenment lies somewhere out among the stars, and walking the path towards it gradually moves a person toward ability to operate in zero-G situations, survive a lack of air and heat, etc. Sufficiently advanced monks could spacewalk safely with no protective gear-- they're just that "in tune" with the universe.

Eh?

[Stargate525]

What if enlightenment lies somewhere out among the stars, and walking the path towards it gradually moves a person toward ability to operate in zero-G situations, survive a lack of air and heat, etc. Sufficiently advanced monks could spacewalk safely with no protective gear-- they're just that "in tune" with the universe.

Eh?

Well with the exception that this violates nearly every law of physics, it's cool.

[Lmns Crn]

Well with the exception that this violates nearly every law of physics, it's cool.

I did it that way on purpose, so they'd be just like fantasy-genre D&D monks. :yumm: