The Unfinished World

[Epic Meepo]

Now, if there was an immense split in the church of a single meme, would the meme split also? Or would a second meme rise up to take on one half of the god's 'portfolio' (using that word extremely loosely)?

Since Memes are noncorporeal in their natural form, there's no way to tell for sure. Sages speculate that the second option is the most likely of the two.

[Jharviss]

I have to say, the Meme-Deities are probably the single coolest campaign aspect I've seen in either a long time or just ever.  They are exciting.

I just wanted to throw out some random thoughts.

You've already said that opposing views cannot cancel out the Meme, and therefore a view that deities do not exist would not make it stop existing.  That said, what about an Atheist Meme?  The God of No Gods, or the God of Godlessness?  It doesn't have to have a humanoid form, but you could even pin it as the enemy of all other Memes.  I figure that if all powerful ideas are represented in the Meme-Deities, then Atheism should as well.  And I think that would be really cool.

Looking at campaigns, I think it would be interesting for the group of characters to learn the nature of the Memes and then crusade against them.  What would lead to some fun adventures is that some things are Memes and some are not, as you described abjurations.  I can really see some characters fighting an abjuration and using their typical anti-meme tactics, when one yells out, "Guys, this isn't a meme!  I think we're in trouble!"

But maybe that's just me.

Just so I have it right, there are a lot of settlements within the wilderness and they are each very, very independent of each other.  Therefore the Memes allows each settlement to act differently, akin to a whole new setting, from one another.  In one settlement, they could believe that the undead protect them (as you said), but in another settlement they could believe that they are haunted by the dead, and both would be true in their respective settlements.  Is this correct?  If this is true, this is the ultimate adventuring setting, though one that players could really end up hating.  
:hammer:

Also, I'm slightly confused on the logical aspects of this setting.  What exactly is the Wilderness?  Is it just Wilderness, and if so, how is everything shifting?  That seems odd to me, which I realize it's suppose to, but can you elaborate a bit?

Thanks,
Jharviss

[Ivar]

The Meme-complex idea is a pretty interesting take on religion in a setting.

Here's something to ponder:  What happens when a cult or religious group takes it to extremes.  Say for example, that a cult does mass-suicide or a religious suicide attack?  What would that represent in meme form?

I'm more interested in your idea of the Wilderness.  Like above, what do you mean by "distance and direction have no meaning"?  Is that flavor text to show how vast the Wilderness is, or is it actually a shifting and chaotic place?

Wilderness settings in general are my favorite by far.  The unexplored allows for endless adventures and unique encounters that you couldn't otherwise pull off in a known world.

Thus far, all of my campaigns have been run in a setting with unknown areas and vast wildernesses.

[Lmns Crn]

How very interesting!

(It occurs to me upon reading the first few posts that I read this before, and meant to comment, and got distracted. So I'll remedy that now.)

I like the idea of travel. It's a handy way to cover travel in a narrative game, I think, since the actions of the characters when they say "we'll set out for the city" are not too awfully different than the actions of the players who are directing them. It puts an interesting spin on navigation, certainly.

What happens when people travel as a group? For example, a group of people going to a place they've never been hires a guide who's made the trip many times? Do the new travelers get to use the guide's expertise to get there reliably? Does the nature of travel have the potential to split up a group of travelers?

General question: Have you read any of Roger Zelazny's Amber novels, by chance? Travel is handled in a similar sort of way in those books, and you may find reading them to be inspirational and instructive (as well as simply entertaining.)

The idea of memes is a powerful one in itself (recursion much? :) ) It reminds me of something, but I can't seem to put my finger on what.

How much do the inhabitants of the Unfinished World know about the nature of memes? Do they recognize that their gods are born of their own thoughts?

Furthermore, is it possible for a person or organization (say, a demagogue, nation, or cult) to cultivate its own pet meme for private use? Do memes resent such behavior, or are they like enough in mind and nature with their "source thinkers" to willingly comply?

[Epic Meepo]

Say for example, that a cult does mass-suicide or a religious suicide attack?  What would that represent in meme form?

Review Swapping[/url] thread. The next chance I get after working out all of the details here, I'll try to give some reciprocal reviews.

[Lmns Crn]

So there will never be any maps of this place, because it's impossible to pin down locations and geography that precisely?

Do relative directions exist in a generalized sort of way? That is to say, given cities A, B, and C, is there a way to tell that B is closer to A than C is, even if "how close?" and "how far?" can never be quantified? Is there a concept of "between-ness", where city B could be thought of as between cities A and C, perhaps even a stop along the way?

I wonder how this all affects travel time (and shipping, trade, and economy, if you're even going to mess with that business at all.)

Do inhabitants of the Unfinished World have vague, conceptual "maps" of various cities, or does the concept of "where" simply become meaningless above the local level?

At what point does the geography break down? I expect that travel works normally if I'm walking from by chair to my desk, so at what point does normal distance and direction start to break down? Is it possibly to become hopelessly lost inside a large city, for example, or do manmade enclosures like city walls protect travelers from such hazards?

What happens to a traveler who attempts to travel to a place that doesn't exist? Does the attempt create a new place? Does the traveler arrive (assuming a successful trip) at the nearest existing equivalent of the attempted destination? Does the traveler automatically become hopelessly lost? (Edit: Nevermind; I saw "No Destination" in your table, which answered this question.)

Edit: Mainly, I guess I'm curious about what happens to travel when distance is removed (and every possible destination becomes effectively equidistant.)

[Eclipse]

Another question I just thought of: How are new cities founded? Let's say a large group of people wanted to leave a city to found a new one. Would their destination be "suitable spot for a new city" (Never Seen Before) on the travel guide? Would they be able to find such a place?

Or how about prospecting? It seems like someone could go into the wilderness looking for a place to where gold can be mined that no one else has yet found, and would have a 90% chance of finding some precious metal mine, since random trip says he'd arrive at a thematically similar place. Would special locations like that have a special roll, or is a critera like that too vague?

Also, on memes - what limits a meme's form? For example, if a major religion in a large city believes that there is a sentient city - or even a city populated by demons - that intercepts people on wilderness trips as a means of keeping its citizens in line, would such a city exist, or is that beyond what a meme can do?

Also, if the religious leaders are aware of how memes work, could they preach to their populace that a massive army of demons is going to decend upon their foes, and the populace believed them, would such an army then exist? And, as a counter to that, if the people of that town believe a celestial host will protect them, would such a host exist?

Depending on how flexible memes are and people's awareness of them, I could see some absolutely facinating city concepts arising.

[Jharviss]

I was discussing memes with a friend (that's how into this setting I am!) and a couple things came up.

For example, what if people believed their meme to be omnipotent?  Or omniscient?  What is the scope of a meme's power, and how much can that scope change based on what people believe?  If people believe a meme to be a demigod, I can see how that meme would only have the powers prescribed to him.  But a true, all-powerful god would be different.  Not all memes could be the one, all-powerful god.  So how would you differentiate that?

Also, how conscious of themselves are the memes?  I realize that the memes have no thought unto themselves until they are born from an idea, but once they have this thought, do they know they are memes, or do they simply believe that they are the person they are supposed to be?

For example, let's say that this group believes in Zeus.  So Zeus is created from a meme.  Does Zeus know he's a meme but is nonetheless Zeus, or is the meme completely unaware of its true form and fully believe it is Zeus?  Therefore, does the meme create memories for itself from the time before people believed in it?  Like, if people said that Zeus has been around for thousands of years, would the meme create memories for itself from the past thousands of years, even though it wasn't around?

Also, what about strong creationist theories?  Would there be an embodiment for the "big bang theory"?  That's a curve ball, so feel free to ignore that question. :P

Also, let's say somebody is in the Wilderness.  What if they tried to cultivate it?  Would the wilderness simply change the moment they looked away?  I'm still trying to get a good idea, beyond a mechanical standpoint, of how the Wilderness works.  Let's say I tie a rope to my house (in a Settlement, which is basically stable wilderness, as I can tell) and venture into the unstable Wilderness.  Would the rope let me find my way back in the changing Wilderness?  Or would the rope snap as the Wilderness changes?  

Also, what causes the Wilderness?  I don't believe this has been explored.

[Epic Meepo]

So there will never be any maps of this place...? ...At what point does geography break down?

Do relative directions exist in a generalized sort of way?[/quote]I wonder how this all affects ... shipping, trade, and economy...[/quote]Do inhabitants of the Unfinished World have vague, conceptual "maps" of various cities, or does the concept of "where" simply become meaningless above the local level?[/quote]Inhabitants have regional maps, and sages who like to categorize things can implement crude latitude and longitude schemes. But since none of this affects travel times, the "where" of a given settled land is as irrelevant as the "where" of the Astral Plane.

That being said, some extra-planar creatures have wondrous maps that would boggle the minds of most Unfinished World residents. More on that obscure piece of lore later...

[Epic Meepo]

How are new cities founded? Let's say a large group of people wanted to leave a city to found a new one.

Or how about prospecting? It seems like someone could go into the wilderness looking for a place to where gold can be mined that no one else has yet found, and would have a 90% chance of finding some precious metal mine, since random trip says he'd arrive at a thematically similar place. Would special locations like that have a special roll, or is a critera like that too vague?[/quote][If] a major religion in a large city believes that there is a sentient city - or even a city populated by demons - that intercepts people on wilderness trips as a means of keeping its citizens in line, would such a city exist, or is that beyond what a meme can do?[/quote]thing[/i] doesn't make it real. Believing in an abstract concept (e.g. "the gods protect the citizens" or "lurking demons threaten our existence") would create a beings that embody that concept. These beings would then conform to the normal rules for creature of their type; they would have to use the ordinary abilities of their kind to construct dominions, control territory, influence mortals, etc.

Also, if the religious leaders are aware of how memes work, could they preach to their populace that a massive army of demons is going to decend upon their foes, and the populace believed them, would such an army then exist? And, as a counter to that, if the people of that town believe a celestial host will protect them, would such a host exist?

Depending on how flexible memes are and people's awareness of them, I could see some absolutely facinating city concepts arising.[/quote]I'll try to keep that somewhat vague, so GM's aren't too limited in deciding how to use Memes in their campaigns.

[Epic Meepo]

I was discussing memes with a friend (that's how into this setting I am!) and a couple things came up.

For example, what if people believed their meme to be omnipotent?  Or omniscient?[/quote]Also, how conscious of themselves are the memes? [Do] they simply believe that they are the person they are supposed to be?[/quote]Therefore, does the meme create memories for itself from the time before people believed in it?  Like, if people said that Zeus has been around for thousands of years, would the meme create memories for itself from the past thousands of years, even though it wasn't around?[/quote]Also, what about strong creationist theories?  Would there be an embodiment for the "big bang theory"?  That's a curve ball, so feel free to ignore that question. :P[/quote]Also, let's say somebody is in the Wilderness.  What if they tried to cultivate it?  Would the wilderness simply change the moment they looked away?[/quote]Let's say I tie a rope to my house... and venture into the unstable Wilderness.  Would the rope let me find my way back in the changing Wilderness?  Or would the rope snap as the Wilderness changes? [/quote]Also, what causes the Wilderness?[/quote]The laws of physics of the Unfinished World. The Wilderness just happens to represent the shape of the Unfinished Material Plane, the way a spherical geometry represents the shape of Earth.

[Epic Meepo]

[post pruned]

[Jharviss]

So my next question is pretty simple: what races are in the Unfinished World?  I don't believe it's been mentioned, but the Unfinished World seems like a D&D world, and I was wondering if there are D&D races?  Or are they all human?

Also, are there monsters wondering the Wilderness?

[Epic Meepo]

...what races are in the Unfinished World?

I don't believe it's been mentioned, but the Unfinished World seems like a D&D world...[/quote]the[/i] D&D world. Specifically, I started with the 4th Edition setting - "points of light in a world of darkness" - and took it to its wildest extreme: "bastions of order in a sea of chaos." Not only is the world a dark place in need of heroes; it's also a place where the very fabric of reality is breaking down just over the next hill.

Also, are there monsters wondering the Wilderness?

Yes. (Wow. These questions are much easier to answer than questions about Memes.)

[Epic Meepo]

Somehow, I missed Luminous Crayon's first post! Now, I shall rectify the situation.

What happens when people travel as a group? For example, a group of people going to a place they've never been hires a guide who's made the trip many times? Do the new travelers get to use the guide's expertise to get there reliably? Does the nature of travel have the potential to split up a group of travelers?

Have you read any of Roger Zelazny's Amber novels, by chance?[/quote]How much do the inhabitants of the Unfinished World know about the nature of memes? Do they recognize that their gods are born of their own thoughts?[/quote]Furthermore, is it possible for a person or organization (say, a demagogue, nation, or cult) to cultivate its own pet meme for private use?[/quote]Do memes resent such behavior, or are they like enough in mind and nature with their "source thinkers" to willingly comply?[/quote]When not acting in accordance with the ideas they represent, Memes are incapable of resentment. An Meme filling the role of detiy is capable of resentment, assuming it is thwarted in its efforts to promote its divine agenda.

EDIT: Also, new and updated information about Memes in the third post of the thread. Hopefully, it will clarify the answers to some of the questions people brought up.