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Dragons!

Started by Matt Larkin (author), November 21, 2007, 04:06:05 PM

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Matt Larkin (author)

I have to agree defining dragon nature by color is a little too neat and easy. "Ooo, a blue dragon, he must be evil!"

But, while the classic European dragon may be evil, if we are using the word broadly enough to encompass long dragons, feathered serpents, and the like, the picture is not so clear.
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Wensleydale

The 'true' dragons in Wonders were ultimately powerful and ultimately arrogant, and saw everything apart from themselves -not dragonkind, but just that specific dragon- as worthless. But they all went mad and died, and now there are very few true dragons left.

DeeL

In literal terms, the question 'What is a dragon' has a specific answer depending on the context.  In metaphorical terms, however, it seems clear that a dragon is a symbol of power transcending human understanding and unconcerned with human interests.  This distinguishes the tropes of dragon and angel - an angel, for whatever reason, has an interest in human happiness and achievement (a negative interest in the case of fallen angels) whereas a dragon doesn't find humans terribly important.  Might find them tasty, though...

Bottom line, a dragon is a pre-Lovecraft Cthulhu.
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Lmns Crn

There are no dragons, and never were. But sometimes, there have been dragon-shaped holes in the world, and holes need filling.

The iconic dragon is representative of power, but so are other things. The Third Reich has been a dragon, and so has the nuclear weapon. The soulless megacorporation is a common incarnation of modern dragon-ness, supplanting the ever-classic secret, malevolent society and/or cult. For futuristic settings, alien creatures and computer intelligences fill the part, when "giant lizard" just doesn't get our engines revved anymore. (See: "I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream"-- a terrible tale of humans trapped in the lair of such a creature, with no wings, scales, or fiery breath in sight.)

The "giant flying lizard" version of the dragon is one of many things that can fill a primal human need: to create things we can't control.
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Thanuir

A reptilian creature with mythical power, be it elemental (fiery breath, connection with rain) or outright magical (guardian of hidden knowledge), or, occasionally, psychological (persuasive whispers).

Matt Larkin (author)

Interesting LC, with the dragon as a metaphor, I suppose.

But in the first statement, is that applied to the Jade Stage (no dragons)?

Quote from: DeeLBottom line, a dragon is a pre-Lovecraft Cthulhu.
:-p
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Slapzilla

My take,

Quote from: DeeLIn metaphorical terms, however, it seems clear that a dragon is a symbol of power transcending human understanding and unconcerned with human interests.  This distinguishes the tropes of dragon and angel - an angel, for whatever reason, has an interest in human happiness and achievement (a negative interest in the case of fallen angels) whereas a dragon doesn't find humans terribly important.


The story of George and the Dragon stems from the story of the good Christian Hero destroying the evil non-christian 'other'.  Patrick driving the snakes from Ireland is one of those stories.  The snake was the Celtic symbol of their religion. It's easy to follow the hyperbole from snakes to serpents, to terrible lizards and on to dragons eventually. I think the European vision of the dragon was exactly how scary the unpure soul and its effects on society is.  (Then and now?)  Greed, lust, sloth... all the seven deadlies rolled up into a capricious, subtle, finicky, independent but needy (am I describing a cat?) fiercely powerful creature that we need a hero to protect us from.  In this way, dragons are very physical and earthly.

Eastern dragons are the guardians of Order, the winds, the cardinal directions and the flow of the heavens in general.  Tremendously metaphysical and very transcending of human understanding, but specifically concerned with human interests.  Not directly or perhaps individually mind you, but they maintain the house and the grounds that humans live in.  Does that make sense?  They represent a wisdom that shepherds humanity, not a rapaciousness that eats it.

What I love about dragons is the metaphor itself.  If there is a systemic 'wrong', a problem so pervasive that cannot be rooted out without sacrifice and pain, a cancer that eats you physically, mentally and spiritually... it can be represented as a dragon.
If there is a systemic 'right', a process so wise it could not be altered without weakening the system, a balm that supports body, mind and spirit... it can be represented as a dragon.

Dragons represent, to me, the most powerful extremes of the best and worst of the range of earthly human qualities.  If the Queen's greed and wars bankrupt nations while enriching herself, you know she's got a dragon.  She may be a dragon.  If the generosity and wisdom of the Queen is compared to the Gods' own, and her demense is not the envy of, but the example of how to do things right, well and just....

Angels are a different thing entirely.  
...

Eorla

"The dragons! The dragons are avaricious, insatiable, treacherous; without pity, without remorse. But are they evil? Who am I, to judge the acts of dragons?... They are wiser than men are. It is with them as with dreams, Arren. We men dream dreams, we work magic, we do good, we do evil. The dragons do not dream. They are dreams. They do not work magic: it is their substance, their being. They do not do; they are."
~Ursula K. Leguin, The Farthest Shore
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Wensleydale

Quote from: Eorla"The dragons! The dragons are avaricious, insatiable, treacherous; without pity, without remorse. But are they evil? Who am I, to judge the acts of dragons?... They are wiser than men are. It is with them as with dreams, Arren. We men dream dreams, we work magic, we do good, we do evil. The dragons do not dream. They are dreams. They do not work magic: it is their substance, their being. They do not do; they are."
~Ursula K. Leguin, The Farthest Shore

I love Ursula LeGuin. Awesome book.

LordVreeg

Hmm.

Dragons (Sauroids, as they were termed first by Grazzt and Amerer) were the second servants of the Celestial planars in the Celtrician setting, created in the depths of the Age of Legends.  After the Accords of Presesnce and the subsequent binding ot the Decayed Lord of the Cycle, the Dragons were free to go to their northern stronhold and try to create their own civilization.
But during the second age, the Age of Heroes, they were drawn into the insanity of the battle between the agents of the Planars, and the Sauroid settlements chose sides, culminating in struggle bewtween the Bard Numansongs and the Archlich Arbor, where the Sauroid civilization was broken.
Now Dragons are solitary of their own kind, though singly they sometimes find riders in ancient disciples of the Gwynnlian Wingbrethren.

Dragons in Celtricia are huge and powerful.  Many of the size rules and damage rules were set into place with Dragons and Giants in mind.  We have a low HP setting, with the highest current HP in a PC of over 14 years of continuous play being 36, and the highest ever being 44 for a PC.  A young dragon will have that much, but even a young adult dragon will have 60-80, and the greatest ancient dragons will have between 120 and 180 Hp.  The protective armor plate gets thicker with age, and an adult dragon has armor that protects more than field plate and a tower shield, yet they are fast and have blinding reflex.
And Dragons all cast in Celtricia, they wer created with a natural tack for funnelling power from the collective unconsious, so they have tremndous mentalsi spell abilities, and most of them show strong affinity for the elemental magics as well, pulling power form the House of Water and the House of Earth, as well as the Well of Fire and the Endless Skies of the Third Station (The House of Fire and the House of Air are no longer).  
In Short, though dragons are fierce competitors in most Settings, Celtrican Dragons are built to end the careers of the any silly enough to bother them.  Dragons are more than a match for almost any historical heroe.  My PC's have run nto 2 young Dragons in the last 12 years, and have gotten lucky to only lose 1/3 of the party both times.  And that is the 14 year old group.

Sauroids are born in clutches, and are born grey.  Their hues and shades derive from their temperament, not vice-versa, and after about 50 years, they start to 'show their colors'.  A mother dragon can try to instill values, but there is no genetic strength to form one color or another, a mother dragon can have 4 hatchlings of 4 different temperamental hues.
Also, it is common for more long lived dragons to be 2 or more colrs in their life, as a Sauroid matures and their life changes them, they may change colors with their maturity.  There are far more young colored dragons than metallic or gem hued, though if they survive beyond adulthood, the numbers even out.
 
(I have an orange dragon...they are very ironic and playfully selfish...)

VerkonenVreeg, The Nice.Celtricia, World of Factions

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Old, evil, twisted, damaged, and afflicted.  Orbis non sufficit.Thread Murderer Extraordinaire, and supposedly pragmatic...\"That is my interpretation. That the same rules designed to reduce the role of the GM and to empower the player also destroyed the autonomy to create a consistent setting. And more importantly, these rules reduce the Roleplaying component of what is supposed to be a \'Fantasy Roleplaying game\' to something else\"-Vreeg

Ghost

In Ifpherion: AoE, I took a more SF view for Dragons. They were initially engineered to be able to eat any solid matter and convert it into energy, and to survive a wide variety of environments, though their first use was in the landfills of Earth, Mars, and Europa. Eventually, they were taken everywhere Humans went. It wasn't until the discovery of the Permeable Zones that they gained the mastery of knowledge they are known for today. Until about 4000 AD, they were no smarter than a human. They have become driven to record knowledge, and to generate things to learn about. The Dragons were the first ones to consistently use the unique properties of the Permeable Zones to improve upon technology, and by now they have begun to probe the areas long held not to be possible, such as time travel, divinity, cross-universe travel and Permutations not limited by the input energy.

Of course, they still meddle in the affairs of sentient races, including Humanity and its divergent successor species. Specifically, on Ifpherion, they've assumed the role of enigmatic, mostly harmless oracles, secluded in remote or difficult terrain.

Oh...Permutations...I think I've just found a possible replacement for the name 'magic' in my setting...

Anyway, this is partly based on my own view - that what the most impressive thing about any Dragon is its mind, and to a lesser extent, its magical power [which is often tied to its intelligence].
‘Yes, one may live while never leaving their domicile. But then, they aren’t really alive. Exploring, adventuring, becoming a mercenary - whatever one may call it, it is the blood of the world that many are embracing now. Our reach is advanced nearly everyday, and the stars themselves are in our grasp. That is why I, and many others, continue to learn as we do.’

-Cazirife Dee, Captain of the Holy Vyecec (excerpt from the intro to Ifpherion: AoE)

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SDragon

One quick questions about dragons:

What is it, exactly, that demands they be reptiles? The only fundamentally iconic aspects of dragons, that I can think of as depicting them as reptiles, are the scales, and- arguably- the eggs. What I wonder is, why can't a given setting simply say the "scales" are just thick, flattened hairs, making dragons mammals? Feathers would make them birds, and a semi-aquatic mature might make them amphibians.

So, really, what demands that dragons be reptiles?
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Jharviss

If you look at Eastern dragons, they really seem more amphibian.

I think the only thing that classifies them as "reptiles" is that most of their features are reptilian.  I would rather argue that "dragon" is a species all itself, independent of any other.