DUGS-- Diceless Universal Game System [discussion thread]

[SDragon]

That's actually an area that's a work in progress. I haven't decided how long specific actions last, and as of right now, all numeric values are approximate placeholders. It may end up so that the average person has a maximum of 5 physical EP, or it may end up so that the average maximum is 100. For the sake of bookkeeping (and for what I call Yu-Gi-Oh Power Syndrome, although it could just as easily be called DBZ Power Syndrome), I'm hoping to not have the numeric values needlessly high.

[Aequitas]

Good idea, so different skills would have different timelines. Something like Animal Training could provide hours of work for 1 EP while perhaps Climbing would give you 10 minutes per 1 EP? I agree keeping the maximum EP fairly low would be a good idea as it would make certain skills "special cases" rather than commonly used.

Have you given any though to spellcasting? Would a similar point system be used? Perhaps the same point system, so both skills and spells draw some the same source of EP?

[SDragon]

That actually might be a good idea. As of right now, it's GMs choice, and it might stay that way for awhile, but different timelines sounds like a good way of handling it.


Spellcasting I have had thoughts on, and I'm not perfectly sure what to do. If I don't include it, then I'm limiting the versatility of the system, but if I do include it, my implementation could arguably be limiting the system just as much. I'm going to try to figure out the most generic way to handle this, but it may take a little while. Don't expect magic as the next advancement in the system ;)

[SDragon]

Question:

Should I make initiative directly equal to DEX?

[Aequitas]

I like the simplicity, but it would mean that characters pretty much always go in the same order. Since you're striving for diceless, maybe add a skill (React, Aware, or Initiative?) that allows players to spend EP and be able to get a heads up more often in battle?

[SDragon]

That could work. I can also see advantages working in that way, too....

[Xeviat]

So, after the longest day in history, I'm posting like I promised. I warn you that I'm writing these comments as I read, and I haven't yet read all of the discussion posts:

- I'm worried about the diceless method. Unless there's some sort of "extra effort" mechanic, people will run into stuff that they just can't do, and stuff that they can do they will succeed at without a problem unless their energy is low. I don't know if this simulates reality better than dice, but I know I've gotten Fs on Essays (I'm probably quite skilled at the presumed Writing skill) or burnt rice (I'm a decent enough cook).
- Class vs. Skill based systems aren't inherrently easier to balance than each other. L5R is a skill based system that only uses "classes" to determine some bonuses you get as you advance, and from my experience that system was impossible to balance. Class or Skill isn't what makes things balance-able, it is Level which allows you to balance a game. Without a level cap, you WILL run into characters who focus solely on what makes them strong and will end up stronger than characters who develop organically. Many MMOs, for example, have skills which go up as you use them, but there are still caps to the skills based on your level. Mutants and Masterminds is a point based system that has level-caps, so everything is (too) balanced with each other.
- For making a system setting-less, I feel the most important quality is having a diverse "FX" system. With enough work, non-magical character options can be crafted to allow for any archetypical and atypical non-magical character. Fundamentally, magic differs many settings from others. The traditional D&D classes don't work 100% in my setting anymore because of my setting's take on magic, for instance.
- I'm not 100% sold on your ability scores. Making Intelligence a catch-all mental stat sounds like it will be a must-have, and I don't believe it allows for all of the personality and mental diversity found amongst people. I'm sure you intend for such diversity to be created with skills, and that might be fine. If you do that, though, I would recommend to change "Intelligence" to "Mind" or something. But, about Charisma: Charisma isn't about "showing people you know what you're talking about", that would be what someone without charisma would have to resort to; someone with Charisma is simply liked and trusted, and what they say is taken in the best light generally. I could get into a long list of terrible but charismatic people, but there isn't much agreement.

I'm not really sure what else to say here. I'm not certain how you're going to have the other ability scores come into play, or how conflict resolution is really going to work out. Will players know how much energy a task is going to take to succeed? Will they be encouraged to spend the maximum amount every time?

[SDragon]

Xev, I will get around to responding, but there's just so much to respond to! I'll probably end up quoting your post, breaking it apart, and responding to it in piecework. I hope you don't mind that.

In the meantime, I'd like to announce that I'm planning on adding not one, but three magic systems! They'll be similar in design, but I'm hoping that they'll be different in effects.

Also, does anybody have much experience with copyleft / "open" licenses? I don't want to make this system entirely libre, but if this ever becomes commercial, I do want to allow and encourage third party development...

[Drizztrocks]

This looks extremely interesting. I was kind of turned off of it by the diceless system, however. If you're trying to make it very flexible and people not having to purchase dice just to play a system, use the bell curve method. All D6 dice. Everybody has some six-sided dice lying around their house, in board games and stuff.

      If all skills rely on energy points, what about skills that don't require a good amount of energy. For example, searching for a book on a bookshelf does not require a small amount of physical and mental energy, this amount of energy is very small. Are you giving a great amount of these energy points, because if you are, how would you keep it balanced and everything? Sorry for my rambling.

       For the skills, what I recomend is making a template. Here's a rough example.

       Skill Name
    {Ability Used}
   Skill Type: just a basic thing, like fighting, talking, just something to show the main category of the skill to give an idea about it.
   Use: What happens when the character uses the skill.
   Effect: What technical thing happen {loss of hitpoints to enemy, a lock picked succesfully, Armore Class beat.

   You wouldn't even have to write out skills, you could just show this template to your players, and they could use their character creation points to get as many skills as you will let them. They can create them themselves, monitored by you of course, and limited to the power and number of skills they get.

    Just ideas and rambling.

[SDragon]

This looks extremely interesting. I was kind of turned off of it by the diceless system, however. If you're trying to make it very flexible and people not having to purchase dice just to play a system, use the bell curve method. All D6 dice. Everybody has some six-sided dice lying around their house, in board games and stuff.

At that point, Why not just play GURPS?

If all skills rely on energy points, what about skills that don't require a good amount of energy. For example, searching for a book on a bookshelf does not require a small amount of physical and mental energy, this amount of energy is very small.

Are you giving a great amount of these energy points, because if you are, how would you keep it balanced and everything? Sorry for my rambling.[/quote]For the skills, what I recomend is making a template. Here's a rough example.

       Skill Name
    {Ability Used}
   Skill Type: just a basic thing, like fighting, talking, just something to show the main category of the skill to give an idea about it.
   Use: What happens when the character uses the skill.
   Effect: What technical thing happen {loss of hitpoints to enemy, a lock picked succesfully, Armore Class beat. [/quote]You wouldn't even have to write out skills, you could just show this template to your players, and they could use their character creation points to get as many skills as you will let them. They can create them themselves, monitored by you of course, and limited to the power and number of skills they get. [/quote]Just ideas and rambling. [/quote]

Thanks!

[SDragon]

I'n looking for a free system similar enough to this to help inspire me to find ways to solve some problems, I ran into this.  It also seems to be licensed similar to how I want to eventually license this system. In other words, it might be damned close to what I was aiming for. If it is, it may slow down development on this system. It may speed it up, but I think slowing it down is more likely.

I do, ultimately, want to finish this system. I simply don't see it as being as much of a priority as it once was.

[Superfluous Crow]

I'm pretty sure you can get Active Exploits for free on RPGdrivethru/RPGnow. At least, i found it there.

[SDragon]

Wish I had known beforehand. The site I linked to only allows three free downloads without a paid download.

Before I officially post the pre-alpha combat system, I'd like to run the basic idea to you guys. The premise is that, in combat, all you need to do is allocate EP into a combat-related skill (close combat, ranged combat, and I may include more, but I don't see the point yet), and then can reallocate some of those EP into defense, and your opponent does the same. If your opponent has more EP remaining in their combat skill then you have in your defense, then damage is dealt equal to the excess. In other words, damage = (EP originally allocated to combat - EP reallocated into defense) - (EP allocated in opponent's defense). At first glance, this seems like it might just be a battle of who has more EP to spend, but once modifiers (weapons, shields, armor, advantages, disadvantages, etc.) are considered, it gets pretty strategic. The modifiers probably end up being an even bigger factor then expendable EP. Of course, in extraordinarily extended combat, factors like the Luck and Energetic advantages might come into play, too.

[SDragon]

okay, so I've decided to quote you in one big chunk, with minimal response (EG, no substantial response whatsoever), and then edit my response in. If I end up missing anything, let me know.

So, after the longest day in history, I'm posting like I promised. I warn you that I'm writing these comments as I read, and I haven't yet read all of the discussion posts:

No problem. Long days are understandable. I will say, though, the discussions might help clarify some of the issues you bring up.

- I'm worried about the diceless method. Unless there's some sort of "extra effort" mechanic, people will run into stuff that they just can't do,

and stuff that they can do they will succeed at without a problem unless their energy is low. I don't know if this simulates reality better than dice, but I know I've gotten Fs on Essays (I'm probably quite skilled at the presumed Writing skill) or burnt rice (I'm a decent enough cook).[/quote]- Class vs. Skill based systems aren't inherrently easier to balance than each other. L5R is a skill based system that only uses "classes" to determine some bonuses you get as you advance, and from my experience that system was impossible to balance. Class or Skill isn't what makes things balance-able, it is Level which allows you to balance a game. Without a level cap, you WILL run into characters who focus solely on what makes them strong and will end up stronger than characters who develop organically. Many MMOs, for example, have skills which go up as you use them, but there are still caps to the skills based on your level. Mutants and Masterminds is a point based system that has level-caps, so everything is (too) balanced with each other.[/quote]- For making a system setting-less, I feel the most important quality is having a diverse "FX" system. With enough work, non-magical character options can be crafted to allow for any archetypical and atypical non-magical character. Fundamentally, magic differs many settings from others. The traditional D&D classes don't work 100% in my setting anymore because of my setting's take on magic, for instance.[/quote]- I'm not 100% sold on your ability scores. Making Intelligence a catch-all mental stat sounds like it will be a must-have, and I don't believe it allows for all of the personality and mental diversity found amongst people. I'm sure you intend for such diversity to be created with skills, and that might be fine. If you do that, though, I would recommend to change "Intelligence" to "Mind" or something.[/quote]But, about Charisma: Charisma isn't about "showing people you know what you're talking about", that would be what someone without charisma would have to resort to; someone with Charisma is simply liked and trusted, and what they say is taken in the best light generally. I could get into a long list of terrible but charismatic people, but there isn't much agreement.[/quote]I'm not really sure what else to say here. I'm not certain how you're going to have the other ability scores come into play, or how conflict resolution is really going to work out.[/quote]Will players know how much energy a task is going to take to succeed?[/quote]Will they be encouraged to spend the maximum amount every time?[/quote]

Good god, no! They'd tire in no time at all if that happened.  Can you imagine going to make a sandwich, rushing as fast as you possibly can to the kitchen, opening the fridge door as hard as you can, using all of your perception to find the ham and provolone (or whatever meat/cheese combo you like :p), taking it, slamming the fridge door as hard as you can, and going on making the sandwich with this much force? Certainly, it's better to save your strength for more important things.

[SDragon]

a couple new skills are added to the list, and I've started explaining one.