A system void of skills and attributes...

[Ra-Tiel]

So, finally, I got around to write down a bit of my proposed "dream" ( ;) ) about an easy system without skills and attributes. So far, I only have got the FreeMind mind map (see attachment).

So, what do you think about it? Do you like the idea, or think it's nuts? Worth considering for deeper design and development, or just a waste of time?

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

So are the advantages within the categories pre-defined, or is this a "pick your own characteristics" system akin to "Spirit of the Century"'s Aspects or the Prose Descriptive Qualities system?

[Ra-Tiel]

So are the advantages within the categories pre-defined,

I was thinking along these lines. Examples for advantages/disadvantages would be:

[ooc]Steady Hand [Physical]
Even under pressure your hands remain calm and steady. Shaking hands are completely unknown to you.

You gain a +[1|2|3|4|5] modifier to all tasks involving fine manipulation or firing handguns or rifles.[/ooc]

[ooc]Perceptive [Mental]
You have a keen eye for minor details.

You gain a +[1|2|3|4|5] modifier to all tasks involving perception and sensual awareness.[/ooc]

[ooc]Shy [Social]
You quickly become nervous in front of other people and are uncomfortable of being the center of attention.

You suffer a -[5|4|3|2|1] modifier to all tasks involving dealing with strangers or while having the attention of many and/or important people.[/ooc]

[ooc]Overload [Psychic]
Your psychic senses are too sensitive for your own good.

You suffer a -[5|4|3|2|1] modifier to all tasks involving psychic contact and psychic perception.[/ooc]

or is this a "pick your own characteristics" system akin to "Spirit of the Century"'s Aspects or the Prose Descriptive Qualities system?

Never heard of those...  :?:

[Thanuir]

If players can't create their own (dis)advantages, what you have is a skill-based system with another name.

SotC SRD is free and PDQ is free. Reading them is likely to give some ideas.

[Ra-Tiel]

If players can't create their own (dis)advantages, what you have is a skill-based system with another name.

Not necessarily. Consider the fact that there are no other values for attributes or other basic abilities, it is likely not "a skill-based with another name". ;)

For example, a character who is able to carry an exorbitant amount of weight would have an advantage "heavy lifter" or something like that (giving him a bonus to all checks while carrying or lifting a heavy load). A character with exceptionally good mathematical skill would perhaps have two advantages, "mental calculator" (allowing her to do difficult calculations in her head without the need for a calculator == giving bonus to mathematics checks), and another "mathematical genius" (giving her a plain bonus to all mathematics checks).

SotC SRD is free and PDQ is free. Reading them is likely to give some ideas.

Thanks for the links. I'm going to take a look at them later this week. :)

[Thanuir]

If players can't create their own (dis)advantages, what you have is a skill-based system with another name.

Not necessarily. Consider the fact that there are no other values for attributes or other basic abilities, it is likely not "a skill-based with another name". ;)

The fact that there can be multiple overlapping skills that stack is different from most skill systems, which either try desperately to avoid having overlapping skills and make a contrived mess as a result or have the player or GM decide which skill is used, and have related skills give a bonus.

It is very possible to build a skill-based system with no attributes. I don't, at least, see the presence of skills implying attributes. A matter of semantics and likely not worth the trouble to argue.

[Ra-Tiel]

The fact that there can be multiple overlapping skills that stack is different from most skill systems, which either try desperately to avoid having overlapping skills and make a contrived mess as a result or have the player or GM decide which skill is used, and have related skills give a bonus. [...]

Well again: the "advantages" in e10 are not only skills. They are a combination of merits usually derived from attributes, skills, or "benefits"/"feats" in other systems.

Also, I don't see why a character should not for example gain a bonus to his attack roll in combat from his weapon training with a handgun and his above average hand-eye coordination. Or why a character should not gain a bonus to his ability to coordinate a squad from his military training and his above average charisma?

[LordVreeg]

As long as the advantages are not montrous, it makes sense to have them overlap.  
what kind of progression are you thinking of using, in terms of character development?

[Ra-Tiel]

As long as the advantages are not montrous,

No, just those things that are typically used as feats/merits/special skill uses.

it makes sense to have them overlap.  

I already limited those. At most any task can benefit from the two highest advantages. So, no stockpiling for things like ranged combat or something else. Usually, the two highest applicable advantages automatically apply.

what kind of progression are you thinking of using, in terms of character development?

To be honest: no freaking idea. :D However, the decision for a "free form" respectively level-less system is pretty much set in stone already. On the other hand, a quest/story-driven advancement system would be pretty handy, too.

Anyways, this is just some brainstorming. ;)

[LordVreeg]

I'll be interested how you do it.
One of the most interesting side-effects of having character's get better at what they do is that often, their character path develops more organically: they become more what they need to be, instead of killing a creature and improving some social feat or something.  

[Ra-Tiel]

I'll be interested how you do it.

To be honest: me too. :D
I'm currently dug up in work in my practical, which - combined with my gym workout 3/week - leaves me with almost no spare time besides the weekends. :( Anyways, I really hope I get to think a little more about it this friday/saturday/sunday.

One of the most interesting side-effects of having character's get better at what they do is that often, their character path develops more organically: they become more what they need to be, instead of killing a creature and improving some social feat or something.  

That's the prime reason why I'm aiming for a level-less system. :) However, I'm not inherently inclined against level-based systems. It's just that for some settings/campaigns they work less than "free-form" systems.

[snakefing]

I can see what you are aiming for with a level-less system. But what is it you are trying to accomplish by making it skill-less?

Are you trying to reduce the complexity by reducing the number of elements that apply to a single roll? (E.g., by eliminating attributes as a separate factor.) I think that might have been what Thanuir was talking about as skills-by-another-name. You could still have a very large number of advantages that provides as much detail as a skill system, except managed and acquired differently.

Or maybe you are trying to reduce the number of options overall? (E.g., a smaller number of "advantages", each of which has broader applicability than any individual "skill" but narrower than any individual "attribute".) This doesn't provide quite the detail as a skill system, but is more easily learned and managed.

Also, are you going to make a distinction between "inherent" advantages (say, things that can only be chosen at initial character generation) vs. "learned" advantages (things that can be chosen or improved with later experience)? It seems to me that something like that might encourage greater diversity of characters, if it was done right. On the other hand, depending on the system for character advancement, it might not be necessary either. That's something I'll be interested to see how it works out.

[LordVreeg]

[blockquote=Ra-Tiel][blockquote=LordVreeg]
One of the most interesting side-effects of having character's get better at what they do is that often, their character path develops more organically: they become more what they need to be, instead of killing a creature and improving some social feat or something. [/blockquote]


That's the prime reason why I'm aiming for a level-less system.  However, I'm not inherently inclined against level-based systems. It's just that for some settings/campaigns they work less than "free-form" systems.[/blockquote]
You speak as if the two are mutually exclusive.  
Getting away from the obvious attempt at avery free-form and mutable system, which is somethingelse you are looking for obviously, you can have levels with action-specific development rewards.  Personally, I use a skill-based system that keeps experience and levels in each base and sub skill, so that you get both levels and actions-specific rewards.  Always a pleasure giving out EXP in Hitpoints, as it normally means someone got hit. :D

Now, I also know you are looking for something easier to work with, but I am wondering if someone's advantages get batter as they use them....still curious.