Magic under d20/3e

[Randzz]

I posted the following on the Paizo site.  

Magic under the 3e system is pretty stagnent since it relies so heavily on the STAT modifier as opposed to the caster level. This really only leaves the option of having the spellcaster use damage-dealing spells. What if a spell caster wants to be more subtle then this, defeating opponents through spells such as Charm or Hold Person or Ray of Enfeeblement as opposed to defeating them with Magic Missile or Fireball?

Under 3e spells DCs are: 10 + Spell level + Appropriate modifier + Misc Modifiers.

In my game spell DCs are: 10 + half caster level (round down on odd numbered levels) + spell level + appropriate modifier + misc modifiers.

Notice that under the second system even low-level spells will gain in strength more regularly & spellcasters will have more tactical options open to them other then just "blowing the opponent to smitherines". Also they'll keep in pace with the opponent as far as having to overcome their saving throws. Under the first system a mid level "victim" has no real fear of a Spellcasters Charm spell, under the second the Charm spell has a far better chance of affecting the same victim.

I encourage people to try my second system & let me know their experiences with it, positive & negative.

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Admittedly I've not used this system in higher levels yet except as one-shots.  Once was for D&D day where I ran an SL adventure & the characters were 8th level.  The other was an AE adventure where the characters were 10th.  I can only get so much info via one-shots.  

I got a couple of responses from a couple of people who've tried it on the Paizo boards.  Apparently it was better at low-levels but became unbalanced as levels went on & monsters got an unforseen power creep. I thought rounding it down at odd caster levels was a step in the right direction, but apparently there's still many quirks to be dealt with.  

Any ideas on how I can keep it balanced & still make spellcasting more reliant on caster level (& keep it simple)?  The system as it is just don't work with me no more, it's simply too reliant on the casters modifiers.  

[Elemental_Elf]

I have a question, why not just make the DC equal to 10 + Caster level + Appropriate Mods + Misc. Mods?

To me, the entire concept should be easy to remember and quickly tabulated. IMO, its much easier to calculate the DC if you just use Caster Level and forgo Spell Level. granted, this idea does come out to be a wee bit stronger on a few levels, but the time it saves for DMs and players could be invaluable.

[Xeviat]

Or, the DCs should be 10 + half-caster level + Ability Modifier + feats. This way a 1st level spell has the same DC as a 9th level spell when cast by the same caster. This is how the DCs for supernatural abilities are determined, and makes them scale with the opponents a little better (minus the fact that some monsters have ridiculous saves since they have tons of HD). I believe its a more elegant solution, as yours allows for the numbers to get very high.

Plus, my suggestion allows them to scale more closely with saves. A character's high save is 2+1/2 level + stat mod + equipment bonuses + feats. The Caster is at a slight disadvantage here, but has an advantage in that a caster is more likely to pump up their primary stat than a character is to pump up a defensive stat (except Clerics, but they should have high will anyway). The main disparity is that casters don't have a magic item to boost their DCs, so I propose this:

Magic Implements. Wizards wield wands and staffs, while clerics wield holy symbols. These implements help to focus a caster's power, much like a magic sword helps a warrior to attack better. Every enhancement bonus adds +1 to the DC of all spells cast through the implement. If the item requires an attack roll, this also adds +1 to the attack roll. (In the future, we could come up with non-plus enhancements to augment a caster's spells, perhaps metamagic feats could be utilized for such a system?)

A magic implement costs 2,000 gp times its enhancement bonus squared. A non-epic implement cannot have a plus-enhancement bonus higher than +5 (or a total enhancement bonus higher than +10).

+1 - 2,000 gp
+2 - 8,000 gp
+3 - 18,000 gp
+4 - 32,000 gp
+5 - 50,000 gp

This pricing is based off a fairly standard notion that 1 feat is worth 2,000 gp (based off a number of different items). Since one feat will add +1 DC or +1 Attack, such would cost 2,000 gp. That's the cost of a +1 weapon, so the scale was chosen.

At times I wish I hated 4E more and cared to mold 3E to something better.

[brainface]

I agree with Xeviat's math: DC 10 + 1/2 caster level + ability mod is the "standard" save calculation for abilities, and is functionally equivilant to heightening all your spells to the max level you could cast. That gives spellcasters a lot more options of usable spells, of course. Like, a lot.

[Randzz]

So take out the Spell level entirely then?  

[Xeviat]

You're replacing spell level with half caster level, so take spell level out of your version. Your highest spell level is half your caster level half the time (except at 20), but it will reduce DCs on the odd levels (1st level gets +0, when they have 1st level spells), but I think having the magical implements would make that not an issue past early levels (besides, you can target peoples apparent low saves anyway).

[Randzz]

OK, I'll try it out.  I'm supposed to be doing a playtest of the Pathfinder system at the end of the month anyway.  So I'll use your suggestions for spells DCs, thanx.