CBG Fantasy Book Rankings [Discussion]

[LordVreeg]

[blockquote=Phoenix][blockquote=215915983=LordVreeg]
Of course I considered that. For quite a while. And I am cynical, so I will agree to that claim. But please paste the rest of my post where I rave about the series first, as that is part and parcel here. Before defending supposed attacks, please include all pertinent comments.[/blockquote]
Noted. I believed I had, since the comments left out were about the book, and here we were talking about his artistic integrity. As an artist, I see calling that into question to be one of the most offensive, most personal insults a person might make. (None of which has anything to do with the caliber of his novels, which your earlier commentary seemed to pertain to).[/blockquote]
Actually, you said you were talking about this
'That's cynical, and even pejorative towards a person many of us respect both as a writer and beyond that' and that does include your respect for him as a writer, which is also the part in my comment you left out.  So you may have been talking later about just the artistic integrity, but you were not at first.  So don't leave out the parts that are respectful of him as a writer, or the parts that respond to your initial response comments.

[blockquote=Phoenix][blockquote=Vreeg]But are you actually defending a Trilogy being busted out to 7 books now as a word-count issue?[/blockquote]

No. I posited the need to maintain consistent word count throughout the books as one of several reasons (the most important reason I posited being that he simply likes to write). Most likely, any number of factors may have contributed. Artists change and revise their visions all the time; what he originally intended is, frankly, irrelevant.[/blockquote]
You did mention both, and you did mention him enjoying his work as the first reason for this 'extension'.  I think the word count issue is as ridiculous and undefendable as I mentioned before.  But the enjoyment of his work is certainly relevant and possible, and likely probable.  I apologize for jumping at the ridiculous and not including the likely.  
And I agree with your comments on it being most likely a number of additive issues is the most probable fact.  Life is rarely black and white.
However, artists changing and revising their needs are fine, as long as they are not going back on what they have said before.  Artists have no more right to abuse expectations than anyone else.  If it were 'irrelevant' in truth, certain uninvolved entities, like the Opal Council Overlord for example, or myself, would not be backing off and waiting.  It is not that I don't love Martin's stuff, as I said.  I just don't trust anything he says now.  I am looking forward to the educated difference between 'changing and revising their visions' and what I will gently call (to avoid hurting artistic sensibilities) 'misrepresenting'.  For the record, I do not believe he intended the series to be longer in the first place, but the popularity of the vehicle has created the opportunity for him to indulge it writing more than he first intended.

 [blockquote=Phoenix][blockquote=Vreeg]'¦Have you considered the possiblity that is asinine, because word count issues such as you mention do not take longer to produce? Splitting a book takes little time, word count issues caused from creating more words does, however, add months and years. ESpecially when it somehow makes an author scrap a year of work.[/blockquote]

This was a little confusing (did you call me unintelligent, or Martin?), but you seem to be saying that you imagine that every time word count was an issue an author could just mash two books together or split one down the middle? Or that you think it unusual for an author to decide to do a rewrite? Many authors do dozens or rewrites. The desire to produce the finest story possible prompts perfectionism.[/blockquote]
Hmm.  Sorry it confused you, but I don't see the word unintelligent anywhere.  I think I could be accused of calling you (since it was obviously your interpretations that were questioned about Martin's actions, not the actions themselves) wonderfully, indiscrimininately, unreservedly protective of the author in question, however.  
I said specifically that word count issues such as you mention (id est, too many words mean longer books, so they need to be broken into parts) does not take anywhere near the time to correct than writing whole new pieces.  I said,
"But are you actually defending a Trilogy being busted out to 7 books now as a word-count issue? Have you considered the possiblity that is asinine, because word count issues such as you mention do not take longer to produce? Splitting a book takes little time, word count issues caused from creating more words does, however, add months and years. ESpecially when it somehow makes an author scrap a year of work."

And of course this is caused by a rewrite.  That's my point!  Whatever the reasoning, it is the rewriting that is taking all the extra time, not any word count issues.  It is the fact he is rewriting I was complaining about. And one hopes the ability to expand the scope has not ruined the perfection like so many authors we have mentioned.  

[blockquote=Phoenix][blockquote=Vreeg]'¦However, I think perhaps you neglect to consider that by my use of the word mercantile, I might be blaming the infuence of Bantam and the editors trying to wring a few extra shekels, NOT the Author. I won't ask for forgiveness or understanding in my belief that a publisher and agents have an interest and influence upon the length of the work in question. I happen to believe that Tolkein's LotR would have ended up being 11 books long in today's climate, and ruined for it.[/blockquote]

Insulting the professionalism and dedication of an entire industry is marginally better than insulting the artistic integrity of an artist. Though since I trained in publishing (but left the field to pursue writing), and since many of my friends are editors, agents, and publishers, I still take personal offense. These are people that love books, love stories, and love authors. Despite what you seem to think, even publishers rarely get rich (the media conglomerates that own them are another story, but then they're always bashing publishers for not keeping up with TV, music, or whatever).[/blockquote]
Ok.  So respond to my point instead of looking for somewhere else to find umbrage.  

Your original comment,
"That's cynical, and even pejorative towards a person many of us respect both as a writer and beyond that.
Have you considered the possibility he just likes writing this series? Or that, as often happens, word count issues have forced a writer to split a book more ways than he originally intended?"

is purely a defence of the author.  I made it clear to you that you might have been incorrect in reading my intent as I was more blaming the machine than the artist, and instead of gracefully taking responsibility for the mistake, you ignore the mistake and light off into the wild blue with another attempt to take personal affront.  Nice Flame.
I suppose the next step is to tell me that the publishing industry actually works on charity and agents and publishers don't really care about the money.    
And that they would never change plans midstream to take advantage of a series that was going well to make more money off of it, especially if the writer was inclined to expand upon his works.  I love how this,

"However, I think perhaps you neglect to consider that by my use of the word mercantile, I might be blaming the infuence of Bantam and the editors trying to wring a few extra shekels, NOT the Author. I won't ask for forgiveness or understanding in my belief that a publisher and agents have an interest and influence upon the length of the work in question. I happen to believe that Tolkein's LotR would have ended up being 11 books long in today's climate, and ruined for it."
 is "insulting the proffessionalism and dedication of an entire industry".

I said that the publishers and agents have an interest and influence upon the length of the work in question, I'm sorry you can be so aggrieved at me calling a business a business, and can take such personal offence to me saying what is obviously true.  
You misrepresented where my comments were directed, and then dramatically overreacted to the comments afterwards.  I didn't say they didn't like books, or authors, or kitty-cats, and I didn't say I thought they were getting rich at it.  Those were your words, and nothing I said even insinuated that.

[blockquote=Phoenix]Regardless no one forces an author to do something like split a series; and no one forces a powerhouse like GRRM to do much of anything. Any claim that the series has sold out will still boil down to claiming to author sold out to the publisher.[/blockquote]  Ah, let us not doubt the powerhouse.  No unabashed fanboyism here, right?
Who said sell out?  That is your wording and HAS NOT been used by me, and I'll thank you to stop it, after being wrong as to my aim and after putting reams of words into my mouth (insulting an entire industry, claiming people are getting rich, or saying that people in the industry don't love the industry, for a start).
My assertation, to put it in black and white, is that the original plans of the Author were changed when the series took off.  No one planned anything evil or sold out, but the publisher saw the oportunity to create a vehicle.  And after it continued to do well, the author (who I agree might certanly truly enjoy being able to do more) was offered the opportunity to write more books for the series.

I may not think anyone is getting rich on it, but it's not like anyone is trying to make money off of this, or that the rights have been sold to HBO, or anything, right?  No mercantile (to use the dirty word again) dimension at work at all.

I hope, personally, that George Martin makes a ton of money from this series, and that his publishers and agents do the same.  I mentioned a few times that I truly enjoy his work, may writing the extended mix before the song work well for him and his readers.

I'll just wait until they are all out bfore buying any more of them and reading them.

and lastly, as I said before,
"  And let me also applaud this thread again. You're getting some good response."

[Matt Larkin (author)]

LV, I never intended to put words in your mouth. If you feel I did, I apologize (I sure feel you put a lot of words in my mouth, so I can see how you feel).

Asinine means unintelligent. Use of the word in any context is inflammatory, and the only reason to use it to be either insulting or dismissive. So yeah, it did produce an inflamed response, sorry.

Accusing someone of flaming is about as much flaming as anything they might have said. As is accusing someone of fanboyism, though the insult seemed almost a joke, so I'll try not to take offense (The comment that he is a powerhouse was from a marketing publisher that trained me, not my original description of him; I had never even read his work until then. The comment that editors don't force bestsellers to do anything also came from one of the top editors in the field, albeit not a fantasy editor.)

Use of the word mercantile as the reason for making a decision led me to believe you were implying the finances won out over art (as opposed to just being factor), which is what I would term "selling out," whether directed at the editors or the author.

Your words were "we now suffer a bloated mercantile attempt to capitalize on the series." However you may want to say I've taken this out of context, I cannot possibly imagine an interpretation of this sentence that is not chiding someone involved for selling out (and I would most likely defend any author against this kind of abuse until proof beyond the fact that the series did make money is presented).

I understand what your saying about stated goals of an artist/designer/whatever versus what happens. I look at the flip side--if a developer of anything is bound by his original estimates, it means he should not reveal those plans to the public, should not share with his fans, for fear of being later straightjacketed when a better idea comes along.

My assertation, to put it in black and white, is that the original plans of the Author were changed when the series took off. No one planned anything evil or sold out, but the publisher saw the oportunity to create a vehicle. And after it continued to do well, the author (who I agree might certanly truly enjoy being able to do more) was offered the opportunity to write more books for the series.

Very fair assertion. Had your original post looking anything like this, I would not have been upset.

[LordVreeg]

[blockquote=Battlin' Bird]'¦[blockquote=Vreegoliscious]My assertation, to put it in black and white, is that the original plans of the Author were changed when the series took off. No one planned anything evil or sold out, but the publisher saw the oportunity to create a vehicle. And after it continued to do well, the author (who I agree might certanly truly enjoy being able to do more) was offered the opportunity to write more books for the series.[/blockquote]

Very fair assertion. Had your original post looking anything like this, I would not have been upset. [/blockquote]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We'll just go with this, and you and I can review to together when it comes out.

[Matt Larkin (author)]

Fair enough.

[Stargate525]

*pulls out pistol and shoots stargate*

never bring a sword to a gunfight.

*points pistol at ishy*

are you then implying that Pluto is not a planet?!

*stabs Nomadic*

I am of course wearing full body armor, I am not a MORON.

[SDragon]

Note the above bolded word here. This was my personal opinion, not something I brought up to be debated (I just felt like sharing it). In closing... its my opinion so :P

You can't claim your opinion is better than mine if you're going to pull this out afterward!

Well, he can, but he has to clarify from the beginning that it's better for him. Since he didn't clarify that immediately, though, you're right in this case.

As a related side note, the wordiness of Don Quixote, or for that matter, War and Peace, Great Expectations, or any of many other books, does not make LotR any less wordy. It makes LotR less wordy in comparison, but it does not make any fundamental changes to the trilogy itself.

[Nomadic]

You all really need to re-read what I wrote. I didn't say that LOTR magically gets less wordy because there are other books out there that are more wordy. Here I'll even be nice enough to quote it for you.

That wordiness that is the common complaint against it is actually quite common in older books (you think LOTR is bad go further back and read Don Quixote).

Don't know how you got the idea I was saying otherwise (my response doesn't really count here since I was trying to find a way to reword it so he would understand what I was saying).

Anyhow, I didn't say what I said for it to be debated. From my end I posted my opinion and people felt the need to refute it (which comes across as them saying that they think I am wrong about my opinion).

[SDragon]

As long as we're asking others to re-read what we write, due to implications we think those others might have picked up, you may want to re-read the first five words of the paragraph that you partially quoted ;) :p lol

[Nomadic]

I don't see how that changes anything... though perhaps your signature might explain that :P

[SDragon]

My point was that in that paragraph, I didn't mention you or anything you said. But then, you're right, maybe my signature does explain my entire post :p

[khyron1144]

Here's a question:

Is graphic fiction (comic books) excluded from this list deliberatley or accidentally?  Why is everyone talking in terms of pure text?

Is it because there aren't a lot of original fantasy stories in this medium as compared to pure text as a medium?

[Matt Larkin (author)]

My intent with the list was novels, not every medium ever put onto paper such as poems, plays, short stories, or comic books. It is why I was somewhat hesitant about some of the classics, but decided they were close enough to novels. I think a separate list would work best for top rated comics/graphic novels, in part because I believe the art form (and I am in no way discounting it as art, though I don't read them), is sufficiently different from novels to warrant a separate list (for the same reason I proposed a separate list for sci fi--also, I don't really want to personally track gianormous lists, since I'm doing this by hand).

[Matt Larkin (author)]

A few more authors and series to collect votes on:

Shana Abe - The Drakon
Poul Anderson - King of Ys
Poul Anderson - Operation Otherworld
Poul Anderson - Three Hearts and Three Lions
T.A. Barron - Great Tree of Avalon
T.A. Barron - Lost of Years of Merlin
John Anthony Bellairs - The Face in the Frost
Holly Black - The Spiderwick Chronicles
Marion Zimmer Bradley - Avalon series
Marion Zimmer Bradley - Atlantean series
Marion Zimmer Bradley - Colin McLaren series
Marion Zimmer Bradley - Shadow's Gate series
Marion Zimmer Bradley - Darkover series
Gillian Bradshaw - The Wolf Hunt
Gillian Bradshaw - Hawk of May
Emma Bull - War for the Oaks
Edgar Rice Burroughs - Tarzan
Chris Bunch - Seer King Trilogy
Chris Bunch - The Dragonmaster Trilogy
Chris Bunch - The Last Legion
Lillian Stewart Carl - Sabazel series
Lillian Stewart Carl - Lucifer's Crown
Jonathan Carroll - Answered Prayers Sextet
C. J. Cherryh - Forge of Heaven
Molly Cochran - The Broken Sword
John Crowley - Little, Big
Bryan Davis - Dragons in our Midst
Lyon Sprague de Camp - Harold Shea
Lyon Sprague de Camp - Gavagan's Bar
Lyon Sprague de Camp - Pusadian series
David Drake - Queen of Demons
Diane Duane - Young Wizards
Lisa Goldstein - The Alchemist's Door
J. V. Jones - Sword of Shadows
Caitlín R. Kiernan - The Five of Cups
Holly Lisle - Arhel
Holly Lisle - Glenraven
Holly Lisle - Bard's Tale
Holly Lisle - Devil's Point
Holly Lisle - The Secret Texts
Morgan Llywelyn - The Elementals
Morgan Llywelyn - Red Branch
Thomas Malory - Le Morte D'Arthur
Peter Morwood - Horse Lords
Jonathan Swift - Gulliver's Travels
Jack Vance - Tales of the Dying Earth
David Wellington - Monster Trilogy
David Zindell - Ea Cycle

If you've read any of these, let us know whether we should as well.

[Ishmayl-Retired]

Darkover series - Marion Zimmer Bradley - 5
Dark Sun - Tribe of One series - 5
Deathgate Cycle - Margarett Weiss - 4
Dragonlance (original series, can't remember name) - 4
Riftwar Saga - Raymond Feist - 6

[Matt Larkin (author)]

I've created what I hope is a more user friendly first page. For new users to vote, just copy the list at the end and add a number. I may try to do some kind of consolidated update for those that have voted.