Do your Gods give a flying ^#$%, and if so, how does it affect gameplay?

[Xeviat]

In my own setting, a deity's level of influence over the world really depends on what kind of deity they are. The vast majority of deities in my world are Nature Spirits or Ancestral Spirits. Nature Spirits don't really care; they reward their followers and punish those who despoil their land, but that's really it. Ancestral Spirits have agendas, but these agendas deal primarily with their descendents and not their goals in their life (the world utilizes reincarnation, so an Ancestral Spirit is a collection of fragments of the ancestors of a family line, not the spirit of one individual).

There are also a few ascended deities, and greater powers who represent grand concepts. Ascended deities were once mortal and found a way to become a god; either through great deeds or the lifelong contemplation of monk-hood. Conceptual deities represent aspects of humanity rather than aspects of nature, such as the Seven Virtues (the Angelic Choir) and the Seven Sins (The Devil Lords).

Nature Spirits, and Ancestral Spirits, can be quite 'low' in power, and could be witnessed by and deal with mortals (especially PCs). For instance, the Spirit of the Forest near my current campaign's starting area is a massive Oak tree served by a coven of individual dryads (dryads who are linked to the god, not their own oaks). This spirit, like other deities, is not omnipotent, and it wouldn't take an epic villain to chop it down.

[Superfluous Crow]

I'm generally not a fan of intervening deities, so it makes sense that i have chosen to make my gods distant and non-existent in my own setting. Although that's of course not what most people believe.

[Steel General]

In the world I'm still slowly developing the gods were very active directly in the affairs of mortals and ended up being the direct cause of catastrophic events that led to the shattering of continents, etc. Eventually they agreed to end their conflict and take a less directly active role, but they are still very influential.

[LordVreeg]

In the world I'm still slowly developing the gods were very active directly in the affairs of mortals and ended up being the direct cause of catastrophic events that led to the shattering of continents, etc. Eventually they agreed to end their conflict and take a less directly active role, but they are still very influential.

Similar to what I have done, which is why I like it.  How do they influence?

[LordVreeg]

In my own setting, a deity's level of influence over the world really depends on what kind of deity they are. The vast majority of deities in my world are Nature Spirits or Ancestral Spirits. Nature Spirits don't really care; they reward their followers and punish those who despoil their land, but that's really it. Ancestral Spirits have agendas, but these agendas deal primarily with their descendents and not their goals in their life (the world utilizes reincarnation, so an Ancestral Spirit is a collection of fragments of the ancestors of a family line, not the spirit of one individual).

There are also a few ascended deities, and greater powers who represent grand concepts. Ascended deities were once mortal and found a way to become a god; either through great deeds or the lifelong contemplation of monk-hood. Conceptual deities represent aspects of humanity rather than aspects of nature, such as the Seven Virtues (the Angelic Choir) and the Seven Sins (The Devil Lords).

Nature Spirits, and Ancestral Spirits, can be quite 'low' in power, and could be witnessed by and deal with mortals (especially PCs). For instance, the Spirit of the Forest near my current campaign's starting area is a massive Oak tree served by a coven of individual dryads (dryads who are linked to the god, not their own oaks). This spirit, like other deities, is not omnipotent, and it wouldn't take an epic villain to chop it down.

This is great.  I love the Oak and Dryad image and I imagine it must play out very well.  I also enjoy having the messengers of divinity not being unltra, ultra powerful.  I like the conceptual deities, as well.  My gods often take on or twist their aspects to attraxct new worshipers.

[Steel General]

In the world I'm still slowly developing the gods were very active directly in the affairs of mortals and ended up being the direct cause of catastrophic events that led to the shattering of continents, etc. Eventually they agreed to end their conflict and take a less directly active role, but they are still very influential.

Similar to what I have done, which is why I like it.  How do they influence?

Some deities are much more active than others - Parnyx (God of Revelry, etc.) is very active, not neccesarily just with his clergy, but having affairs with mortals -  which produce normal (though highly gifted) offspring. Others such as Thempys (God of Time) have little interaction with anyone but their clergy. Most of the others are somewhere in the middle.

Similar to some of the greek myths the gods of Ghoraja Juun have their "favorites" who they monitor and may subtely influence things for. Outright intervention is not allowed, and a deity guilty of it will be censured by the rest of the pantheon. Of course the rules are often "bent" if they can get away with it. :)

[sparkletwist]

For my latest project (which may see the light of day.. eventually... or not. No clue. Anyway...) I've taken a different approach. I've started with the basic premise that there is no formal requirement of "godhood," but if the only reaction people could possibly have to you is worship and awe (or fear), you probably qualify.

The end result is something between a cross between Olympian Gods (they're limited and strangely human in their motivations), Lovecraftian (they probably hate you), and Stargate (they're probably actually powerful creatures from another planet/plane/dimension anyway). It seems to be a bit in opposition to the general trend here... we'll see how it works out. :)

[LordVreeg]

For my latest project (which may see the light of day.. eventually... or not. No clue. Anyway...) I've taken a different approach. I've started with the basic premise that there is no formal requirement of "godhood," but if the only reaction people could possibly have to you is worship and awe (or fear), you probably qualify.

The end result is something between a cross between Olympian Gods (they're limited and strangely human in their motivations), Lovecraftian (they probably hate you), and Stargate (they're probably actually powerful creatures from another planet/plane/dimension anyway). It seems to be a bit in opposition to the general trend here... we'll see how it works out. :)

as always with all of your wonderful stuff, I can't wait to see how you pull it off.  But I know you will...

[Kaptn'Lath]

For my setting the Gods cannot physically come to the material world (blocked by the 4 elemental Lords) but can send envoys and servents (most difficult) or send messages through omens (small trick alterations to the material world, burning bush, flower pedals on farm tools (like the idea ;)), or send messages to the indivuals subconcises through dreams, visions/halluciantions ect. However do to interferance from the Elemental Lords the message usually gets twisted, blurry or otherise "unclear".

The are Three sets or sources or divine magic. The Great Old Ones, Racial Gods, and the Elemental Lords. The Great Old Ones  are personifications of the most basic aspects of "civilived life" basically the separation from "man" and beast. God of Sky and Rulership, Goddess of Farming and Hunting, God of learning (Magic and mundain) Ect. It can be debated in world and out weither the Gods are reflections of the world or the world is a reflection of the Gods.

Small story about what i mean: The God of the Meak drops his two Godling Sons and they fell into the Plane of the Restless Dead. After Odin/Ra/Ameratsu ect found out that he left them there (to later become Orcus and Asmodeus) as he was to scared to go after them, he (The God of Sky and Rulership) punished the God of the Meak to push a giant granite boulder through a tunnel that runns the edge of the Disc-World of Tulorain (causeing a tilt in the disc world to create seasons btw). The strong rule the meak... this is a "natural law" are the Gods reflecting the world or are is the world reflecting the gods? This is how the Great Old Ones influence the world.

The Racial Gods are personifiations of the tradmarks and steriotypes of their Races. Elven Gods of Magic, Art, Forests, Archery Ect. Dwarven Gods of Smithing, Mining, Beards :) Ect. Human Gods of Trade, Diplomacy, Agriculture Ect. They are Reflections of the basic priciples of their races, as the members of those races try to live up the ideals of their Gods. Dual Reflection again.

The Elemental Lords are personifications of the World. their are 4 on the base "magical" elements that make up the world. Combinations of them make up everything in the world around people weather, mountains, the sea, a river, earthquakes, volcanoes, floods, the land, a cool breaze. This is how the Elemental Lords influence Tulorain, indirectly, undirected, and unpredictable. They dont communicated through dreams or visions but the physical omens they show are much stronger and more obvious than the Gods of Essence. A river will overflow its banks and stream down for miles to the devout people of the Water Lord (rare!), a person devout to the Earth Lord traveling through mountains with find a cave or caves going straight through the mountians in the direction he is going. Although Potent their interation/influence with living beings is incredibly rare.

And i think that covers it :)

[LordVreeg]

S&M,
I swear, no one i have ever read fights with themselves as much as you do.  You are a psychologists wet dream, in terms of the inkblot that is your writing.  Bless you again.

I love the fact that you approach the Karmic element of the religion question. I do have some of my dieties rate/judge/ the actions of their more powerful worshippers.  But I can see few GM's as capable of yourself in discussing over lunch and wine the next day what type of karmic ratings a player's actions should really get...

[Snargash Moonclaw]

<gyggle> One thing that I neglected to mention really is that at the more abstract levels some things are deliberately left undefined in the setting - "undefined" being an explicit condition of their existence and operation in the world. "?" is the most obvious - a character pursuing investigation of this deity (and I deliberately dangle the theories presented in the world in such a way that many players are intrigued and nibble it that bait. . .) would eventually learn that the description was in front of them the whole time. The very point being that ? is such an abstraction that it can't be described; so "Who Cannot Be Named," cannot be named not because the name is a secret which no one knows, but because that is an inherent fundamental condition of the thing/concept/being - "The Tao which can be named is not the True Tao" - I really am considering including a "Meddling" stat for the dieties. ? ranks at 0 - does absolutely nothing - while it's most explicit avatar, Behldamh (goddess of insanity) ranks 9. Of course, "the tao does nothing and everything gets done. . ."

"?"'s secret society, the Unseen, likewise does and does not exist. Those who grasp the concept eventually realize that they are in fact the "Illuminatus cabal" they've been looking for all along - if they choose to be. That is, they've been investigating the ramifications of their own (and others very like them, some they know, many only inferred as contacts of contacts. . .) actions upon the world. A small, astute and "global perspective viewing" few, not actively participating in these matters (they believe/assume), have observed the patterns of manifestation and inferred from them the existence of this very secretive and effective cabal/conspiracy guiding those effects. They are partially correct - there really are those in the various 'good alligned' "followers of the way" type organizations (predominantly involving the churches of the various Enlightened Masters, in lesser numbers the Ascended Masters and those other churches/deities with closely associated ethos, esp. healing - Melanar and Behldamh - but ultimately any pursuing an ethos of compassionate assistance to other sentient beings IAW whatever gifts/skills the members perceive themselves as having - such as Galenar (which can become quite amusing) - that is, those with an ethos which manifests, or encourages actions consistent with, the principal of bodhicitta) who of course network, cooperate with and help each other to accomplish these specific goals, and are generally communicating very much behind the scenes even among those who are seeing the "secret activities" simply by way of fact that everyone involved eventually develops a network of personal contacts by virtue of coincidence in past (essentially random) shared activities causing their paths to cross. No such cabal was ever formally created - some have simply come to recognize that it is their own activities which are being described - so that at this point those who realize that they in fact are these "Unseen" can say that The Unseen do indeed exist, while at the same time there really is no such cabal! Treating them as if they are an organized Order at times is useful, at least when describing various related trends and activities of others, such as are becoming apparent in the activities of various worshipers of Hebnaritath (the Lyricists and The Twilight) and those few followers of Melangen and Renosha who are starting to recognize just what an asshole Jessanak really is. . . A lot of what is occurring surrounding Hebnaritath and Jessanak can only really be perceived, much less interpreted, from those rare perspectives which explicitly encompass the activities of The Unseen  - and much of that at this point point remains deliberately "undefined". The same can likewise be said of a number of other areas (dwarven spiritual developments as well as population growth, etc.)

[Snargash Moonclaw]

NB - "?" in common misunderstanding is the god whom the gods worship. Those who really grasp this understand there is no such separate "overdiety", however much in the world of samsaric illusion functions as if there is, including the existence of it's avatar. (The avatar of an overdiety of course would be a god itself. However, since there isn't in fact such an overdiety in that sense, such an avatar of something which doesn't really exist would of course be insane. . . Only those who have achieved absolute enlightenment in Panisadore recognize this obvious relationship. Belhdamh's church has a lot more influence in the world than can be rationally explained. That, however stands to reason, given that she's the goddess of insanity, so no one bothers to look closer. . .)  Those who don't understand this (damn near everyone) then assume their is such a separate entity, or at least assume that whether or not there is one is a actually a reasonable and arguable question worth debating, and simply conclude that if there is one then the truth of it's existence and nature must obviously and inherently  be a secret - which therefore makes it essentially a god of secrets and secrecy! In this case they at least have the good sense to realize that if that is the case then all attributes of a god of secrets and secrecy are by their very nature utterly impenetrable secrets, else the god would actually be a very poor at doing what it's supposed to and therefore not a god at all! At which point most people have the good sense not to waste any further time debating the existence of what cannot be resolved without actually negating its very existence in doing so. . .

Zen humor gets really wyrd

[snakefing]

Since I like to explore culture and society, I've deliberately set up a metaphysics that allows all kinds of different "deities". A god is anything that people choose to call a god. Religions may be based on deity-worship, philosophy, deity-worship subordinated to a central philosophy, philosophy derived from some primary deity-worship, etc.

There are real entities out there - some of them smaller, localized, and more active; others larger, more distant, more remote. Some deities have large numbers of lesser servants; others rely on their human agents. Some religions may worship deities that are primarily symbolic and may or may not exist.

This gives lots of scope for variability in different campaigns that take place in different parts of the world, for clash of culture, religio-political intrigues, and the like.

[LordVreeg]

Since I like to explore culture and society, I've deliberately set up a metaphysics that allows all kinds of different "deities". A god is anything that people choose to call a god. Religions may be based on deity-worship, philosophy, deity-worship subordinated to a central philosophy, philosophy derived from some primary deity-worship, etc.

There are real entities out there - some of them smaller, localized, and more active; others larger, more distant, more remote. Some deities have large numbers of lesser servants; others rely on their human agents. Some religions may worship deities that are primarily symbolic and may or may not exist.

This gives lots of scope for variability in different campaigns that take place in different parts of the world, for clash of culture, religio-political intrigues, and the like.

Ah yes, clash of cultures.  You do have some countries with a theocratic bent, do you not, where churches/priests have a certain amount of secular power?

[Snargash Moonclaw]

What, you didn't think I was done did you? :soap:

What effect do they have on the gameworld (gameplay)? Most systems which propose to quantify this in any fashion use some variant of an equation by which Deific Power is directly proportionate to the # of the deities worshipers. The D20 SRD goes so far as to scale Divine Ranks 0-20 with specific powers/abilities increasing by rank. They don't propose an explicit #worshipers/rank ratio, but group ranks by fives as Lesser, Intermediate, etc. with a general numeric range of worshipers as applied to each group (meticulous GM's could conceivable break this down further). What they don't really look at (and few do) in such a relationship is variables in regarding quality of worship - intensity of actual devotion vs mere belief. Mere belief certainly can provide a lot of basic power - everyone in Panisadore inherently believes in Dashin, whether they worship her or not. Her ethos likewise is not a matter of much debate (save it's scope in certain circles. . .) Mother Nature simply is. As such, not so many in the world get totally wrapped up in their devotion to the omnipresent natural world - and those who do, in DnD at least, being Druids aren't so much worshiping her as engaging in all the natural phenomenon represented by all of the Primordials together. The upshot being that there aren't so many people who will answer "Dashin" if you ask them who they worship. Even so, she is one of the most potent deities in the milieu. Simple belief counts for a lot!

While you might think that intense devotion feeds a god more than mere belief, this doesn't really happen. It does provide a conduit which can accommodate the "bandwidth" needed to permit the total throughput of power necessary to accomplish significant divine effect. Its not a question of how much power the god has at hir disposal but rather a question of how much of the power at hir disposal s/he can bring to bear upon conditions in a particular place and time. Intense devotion tempers the vessel much more than it feeds the god. All things being equal, if you have two deities whom everyone believes in but only actively worships one, the power is equal, but the one with the most worshipers is able to utilize more of it at any given time, i.e., hurls a bigger lightening bolt. Relatively low power deities can still produce high power effects under the right conditions.

So, if you think about the above it will eventually occur to you that "wait a minute, pretty much everyone in Panisadore believes in the existence of pretty much all the gods, except perhaps a god some people have never heard or thought of" but of course the ones listed are basically known world wide, at which point you also realize that "that would mean all the gods have the same amount of power since they have the same number of people believing in them."

I said simple belief counts for a lot. In fact, at actually accounts for everything. What most systems miss is the fact that that is a qualitative statement, not a quantitative one. Since everyone pretty much believes in all the gods, differences in the quantity of the total divine power available to a particular god is a not function of how many people believe in that particular god at all. It is a function of what they believe about that god! Dashin Mother Nature is more powerful and can throw Poncy Mirror Boy Galenar over her knee at any time she pleases because everyone believes this is so! After all, it's pretty obvious that the force of nature itself is far more wide reaching and potent than any motivation to heroism, no matter how good and admirable and noble. The gods compete for followers/worshipers then, not in a contest over sheer numbers, but in the attempt to convince more people to  believe that they are more powerful. Where it comes down to a dispute between opposing claims that "Our god's more powerful than your god," however the numbers win. This can be very difficult to reverse since, once proven, everyone believes that the one is more powerful than the other - they may not lose followers because of this due to ethos (e.g., it may still be important to be nice to others even if nice guys really do finish last) but this situation becomes much harder to overcome later. (Therefore those gods who care about these things don't put them to such direct tests very often and only when they're certain of the outcome.) Reversing such results basically requires convincing a lot of people to disbelieve in the validity of the test for some reason. . . Ultimately, gods seeking to increase their power are trying to find ways to convince mortals that they should be and are inherently more powerful - essentially placing greater importance on some aspect of their ethos - e.g. by convincing people that life should, or is meant to be more fun and joyful and shared with others Benaedras opposes Pahkreet who states that life is inherently mean, brutish and every man for himself. The question of the power of joy and laughter to overcome the power of spite and malice remains unresolved in global terms. Likewise, a struggle in values is occurring between Jessanak and Salistreah and manifest in solar supremacy.

Hebnaritath and Thelema are both quite powerful because Entropy and Karma are immutable forces, yet they are constrained in their power by the perceived nature of those forces, and Belhdamh is probably most powerful of all as anything may succumb to insanity and anything may likewise be healed of it - and she governs both experiences as well as the perspectives and beliefs which arise from each. Power also arises in the contratemps of significant forces - Gaurashiage has convinced the world quite effectively of her power to twist and pervert anything which nature, as her sister, can produce - even though she has few worshipers - she doesn't really need anyone to worship her, so long as there's no doubt in everyone's minds that she truly is their worst nightmare degree of badass, then she is so.

Ultimately, I really am drawing upon concepts described by Terry Pratchett, just not quite as often or as blatantly tongue-in-cheek (save where it simply can't be avoided, in which case the absurdity must be embraced fully as an inherent condition of reality).