On par with sneak attack? (Variant sneak attack)

[Raelifin]

What if sneak attack were replaced with this? Would it be balanced? Why not?

-Dirty Fight (Ex): If the rogue can fight with devastating ability by deceiving their opponent and hitting where it hurts. One may not fight dirty with a reach weapon or a ranged weapon (including thrown).

Whenever using a full attack in melee, the rogue aims low and hits hard, gaining an extra unarmed melee attack that does not provoke an attack of oportunity at the highest attack bonus. This attack deals an extra 1d4 points of non-lethal damage at first level, and it increases by 1d4 every two levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit when fighting dirty, the extra damage dice are not multiplied (though the base unarmed attack is).

A rogue can use only dirty fight living creatures with discernible anatomiesâ,¬'undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is also immune to dirty fighting. Creatures that are immune to non-lethal damage are also immune. A rogue cannot fight dirty with a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

[Senkennomei]

You already know my 2 cents lol

[brainface]

ehhh. it provokes an attack of opportunity (?), and appears to deal less damage, since it only applies to one attack. (so neither iterative attacks nor two-weapon fighting help.) It is an EXTRA attack, but it's only an attack for 1d3+str damage, so unless you use the attack to trip or disarm, it's really no big deal, imo.

might be good for certain multiclasses, or rogues that don't want to bother with flanking.

[Poseptune]

I agree with brainface. It just doesn't seem to be worth trading SA for this ability, because like brainface said you lose a lot of possible damage. Also it cannot be used with ranged weapons, which sometimes is nice when you've snuck up on an enemy.

I think this ability would be underpowered especially at the higher levels where the iterative attacks come into play. The sneak attack conditions are easy enough to get around, so one extra unarmed attack that does non-lethal damage isn't all that great.

[Raelifin]

In terms of mechanics, lets review the pros and cons.

Pros: Can be used almost every round.
Can be effective on opponents who are aware of you/not flanked.

Cons: Requires being in melee.
Not as much damage.
Non-lethal.
Requires a successful hit.

Alright, in retrospect the damage is a bit weak. Should I bump it up to d6? What would you do to make it on par?

[Ishmayl-Retired]

The part I didn't really like is that it deals non-lethal damage.  In my opinion, that's what makes it so much weaker than sneak attack.  How about it deals non-lethal damage up to a certain level (my thoughts would be levels 1,3,5, and 7), and then after that, the the rogue can choose to let the new d4 do lethal damage.  So, on level 11, the rogue would be dealing 4d4 non-lethal, and 2d4 lethal damage per Dirty Attack.  Of, if he had reason to, he could let all 6d4 be non-lethal.  

[Raelifin]

In the end I don't think there's that much of a penalty for non-lethal. Sure, a cleric can heal an equal amount of non-lethal with every healing spell, but in general if a goblin has 4 hp, whether you deal 5 lethal or non-lethal damage is moot.

This mechanic is for the trickster class in Phaedoras, which lacks magical "healing." So the above point about clerics isn't even that applicable to me.

[Raelifin]

After getting some data from various sources I have formulated a few options for powering it up:

1. Increase damage to 1d6.
2. Add a fortitude save or be sickened whenever the attack deals damage.
3. Get rid of full attack requirement.

[Poseptune]

What about the question brainface asked? "Does it provoke AoO's?"

[Raelifin]

Sorry, I fixed that little oversight in the main text. Forgot to tell everone though.

[Poseptune]

I don't think I would get rid of the full round attack requirement. Most feats or abilities that give an extra attack state that it can only be done as a full round attack. The other two options seem to be a step in the right direction though. What would be the DC for the save and would previous dirty fighting attacks affect the DC? Can this extra attack be used for anything other than damage, like trip, or disarm? (I was going to put sunder, but then I remembered it was unarmed. OUCH. :))

[Raelifin]

I'm thinking 10 + Dex Mod? + Extra damage dice.

So at 5th level (With a dex of 14) it would deal 3d4 extra and make them sick on a failed DC 15 fort save.