The Three World's Game System

[Xeviat]

[note=Nomadic Made Me Do It]That's right, blame it all on him.[/note]I'm not here to say I hate D&D 4th Edition. It is a fun system, and I've enjoyed what I've played and DMed of it so far. I really love it from the DM's side of the screen, especially the monster and encounter design. But I have three fundamental problems with it: 1, I dislike the power system for martial characters; 2, I feel unable to make new classes for my setting; 3, the 4E License feels far too restrictive.

Thus, I will be attempting to make my own system specifically for my setting. Currently, I am undertaking this with the guideline that it will be a modification of the 3E d20 system, as that is what I'm most comfortable with. This first post will detail my intentions. I would appreciate it if anyone could point me to a system which might have what I'm looking for, and just general input.

Here are my intentions and desires for the system:[list=1]
*The system will be level-based, but possibly not class-based: I require a level-based system because I feel levels are a simple way of determining character balance and what level of threat the players will be able to handle. I may or may not use classes, as it all depends on what kind of feat/talent system I end up utilizing.
*I want 8 (9) ability scores to fit with my elemental cosmology and magic system: I would like to have 4 physical stats and 4 mental stats, with one physical and one mental fitting with each of my setting's primary elements. The physicals are easy (Strength, Constitution, Dexterity, Agility), but the mentals are more difficult (Currently I'm leaning towards Charisma, Will, Intelligence, and Perception, but I'm having a hard time fitting enough into each). The 9th score in parenthesis is Void, which will be utilized to determine "Action Points", Void magic, and other metaphysical things.
*Unified progression for Attack and Defense Scores: I like that D&D4E has a unified progression for these core stats. It allows there to be differences between the scores of different characters without those differences outstretching each other (In 4E, it's common for characters to have a 2 point disparity between attacks and ACs, but in 3E attack scores could vary by 5 or even 10 points, making it difficult to challenge the party evenly).
*Skills should be nice but not required: I believe I will have little to no passive/defensive uses of skills (for instance, there will not be a skill to oppose the stealth skill; the stealth skill will target a Defense). There should be times when a player wishes their character had a certain skill (like times when a fighter would like to be able to sneak or balance well), but I don't want times when a character is out right punished or exploited because they lack a skill (like when a character without "listen" and "spot" is ganked by an assassin with maxed "hide" and "move silently" in 3E).
*An open-ended maneuver system: One of my issues with 4E is that you know you are playing a game. A 1st level fighter with the power Sweeping Blow can only trip someone once, and then they require a 5 minute rest before they are capable of tripping someone again. These limitations are very game-y. I intend to utilize a maneuver system where different effects have different costs, and players will be able to either put these maneuvers together on the fly or make maneuvers in advance (feats will be used to formalize a maneuver and make it into a signature move; for instance how Improved Trip expanded upon the basic Trip maneuver in 3E). This maneuver system will also be utilized for spells, giving casters the ability to put spells together on the fly based on the situation (certain effects will belong to certain elements, or have discounts when used with certain elements).
*The system will model reality where applicable: Carrying capacity, for instance, will model the ranges people are capable of (a 4E character with 18 strength can lift 180 pounds over their head, yet the world record is 580 pounds!). Real world and non-magical fantasy archetypes will be accomidated (I was very happy with the inclusion of the Warlord in 4E D&D). If you can do it in real life, or if you would believe it in a movie or book, I want you to be able to do it in my game. I intend to be simulationist without it being too complex (rules for mundane things like starvation, thirst, and holding one's breath, throwing objects and creatures, and speeds will be made to model reality for low-level characters with human-range ability scores).[/list]

Here are a few things I am interested in:[list=1]
*I like skill based systems, where weapon groups are skills as well as things D&D has traditionally considered skills. There was a time I disliked skill systems because it was too easy for everyone to have a maximized attack bonus with at least one attack (when I was stuck in the 3E mentality that Warriors should hit better than any other character), but now I realize that this is all but a requirement of a combat oriented game. I may seek a way of doing this.
*I would like to implement levels of skill mastery: every certain number of ranks, a character will unlock new abilities with a skill. For instance, if I use weapon skills, having x ranks in a weapon skill might expand your critical range, while having x ranks in tumble would allow you to tumble at faster speeds without penalty. Basically, abilities that feel like any expert of a certain skill would require, or that all experts of a skill will take anyway, will be part of the skill.[/list]

Finalizing the core ability scores and determining which attributes they apply to will be my first task. I would like each to be numerically balanced with each other, since I may go for a point based level-system (like Mutants and Masterminds). At the very least, each ability score needs to do something important that none of the other ability scores do. I want characters to be able to exist with all manner of ability scores, and I don't want certain stats to need to be high for all characters. I do want, though, players to feel some loss for having a low score; no stat should be a no-brainer dump stat for all characters.

[Xeviat]

Ability Scores
My desired system for ability scores stems from the Elemental system I would like to use for my setting. The core concept is that a being's physical and mental characteristics is either determined by or determines their strength with each element. All living creatures possess five chakras, energy centers within their body that absorb and process the prevailing elemental energies of the world. The elements I will be using are the traditional greek/japanese elements many are familiar with: Air, Earth, Fire, Water, and Void.

I haven't yet decided what the order of opperations yet is, but a character with a strong chakra will show physical and mental strengths associatd with it. Each element will have one physical stat and one mental stat. Currently, this is how I intend to separate them:

Air: (Agility and Perception) Air governs the body and mind's quickness.
Earth: (Constitution and Will) Earth governs the body and mind's resistance.
Fire: (Strength and Charisma) Fire governs the body and mind's raw strength.
Water: (Dexterity and Intelligence) Water governs the body and mind's ability to coordinate and adapt.
Void: (Void) Void makes one whole, for it is what exists between all.

I haven't yet decided what raises which; either physical exercise increases one's fire chakra and thus makes one stronger, or making one's self stronger increases one's fire chakra (since Strength will more certainly be tied to Fire). Magic will be associated with the ability scores, and magic will be divided not only by the elements but also by spheres of influence: Elemental, Physical, Mental, and Void (For instance, Water's spheres currently are Water, Transformation, Illusion, and Healing, while Fire's spheres are Fire, Power, Enchantment, and Light). I would like dedicated casters to focus not only on a mental ability score, but also a physical ability score.

If anyone here is learned in elementalism and the chakras, I would like to discuss the way different cultures associated the elements in these ways. I'm sure my way isn't totally accurate with the way they are looked at, and if there turns out to be a better way to associate the mind, body, and magic of my world to the elements I would love to hear it.

-------------

Aside from that, I am fairly certain I want to stick to a 1-20+ system for ability scores. I would like 20 to measure the normal peak of human achievement, especially since 1-20 allows me to say IQ = Intelligence x 10 (since IQ is a bell curve with 100 as the mean and 200 as the max). Depending on what I determine to be the "normal" range of human "levels" (and thus skill benchmarks), I will use world records of achievements such as lifting and breath holding to determine the guidelines for those in the game.

[Xeviat]

Racial Balance

[Xeviat]

Level Progression

[Xeviat]

Skills

[Xeviat]

[note]I'm basing this maneuver and magic system off of a Maneuver system presented in "Book of Iron Might", a Malhavoc Press book written by Mike Mearls. I had hoped that, since Mr. Mearls was one of the lead developers of 4E, we'd see something more like this in 4E, but we didn't. The Maneuver system is listed as OGL, so I figure me piecing together my system from ideas from his should be fine. Others will let me know if I need to put up any OGL legal stuff.[/note]Maneuver and Magic System
At its most simple, the maneuver/magic system will include a table of effects with a cost for each effect, along with a drawback table with reductions in maneuver cost. If any cost were to be left over, it would translate into an attack roll penalty. This maneuver system will allow players and DMs to come up with the effects of various attacks on the fly, as well as provide a point-based system for designing signature moves for characters.

A player can make a signature move for their character by spending a feat to build a maneuver at a reduced cost. This maneuver becomes a permanent part of the character, and can be used as frequently as the player wants. The 3E translation of this would be the Improved X feats; anyone can use the Trip maneuver, but if someone takes Improved Trip they are far better at it.

I haven't yet determined the costs for effects or drawbacks in 4E, but I am currently going through the 4E maneuvers to determine how they stack up against each other. Power Attack is a good example of a signature maneuver; with the maneuver system, anyone can accept a penalty to hit to gain bonus damage (in the 3E system, the penalty/bonus is -2 to hit for +1 damage), but those with Power Attack do it at reduced cost (this shows that the 'signature move' feat will likely cut the cost of a maneuver in half before applying drawbacks). Since Power Attack gets better as characters rise in tiers, that will probably translate into an automatic cost reduction for higher level characters; this will allow them to use more potent maneuvers on the fly, and allow them to upgrade their signature moves.

As I am still translating the system to 4E, here is the table from the 3E version (I've modified it from its appearance in 'Book of Iron Might'):

[spoiler=3E Maneuver System][table=Melee Attack Maneuver Effects]
[tr][th]Name[/th][th]Attack Roll Penalty[/th][th]Benefit[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Ability Score Damage[/td][td]-20[/td][td]-2 penalty to single attribute[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Area Attack[/td][td]-4 per 5-ft. square[/td][td]Attack an area and all targets in it[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Blinding Attack[/td][td]-24[/td][td]Target blinded 1d4 minutes[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Bonus Damage[/td][td]-2 per +1 of bonus[/td][td]Bonus on damage, max +10[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Daze Attack[/td][td]-16[/td][td]Target dazed 1 round[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Deafening Attack[/td][td]-8[/td][td]Target deafened 1d6 minutes[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Deny Dexterity Bonus[/td][td]-16[/td][td]Opponent loses Dex to AC vs. attack[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Disable Natural Attack[/td][td]-16[/td][td]Prevent use of one physical attack[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Disarming Attack[/td][td]-16[/td][td]Target loses weapon[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Disrupt Special Ability[/td][td]-16[/td][td]Prevent use of Su or Ex ability[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Forced Movement[/td][td]-8[/td][td]Opponent moves 5 feet[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Immobilizing Shot[/td][td]-16[/td][td]Target can't move until it makes a Str, Dex, or Escape Artist check[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Inflict Penalty[/td][td]-4 per -1 of penalty[/td][td]Cause penalty to foe's attacks, AC, checks, or saves, max -5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Knockdown[/td][td]-16[/td][td]Knock opponent prone[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Movement Damage[/td][td]-8[/td][td]Reduce foe's speed by 5 feet[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Sniping Shot[/td][td]-16[/td][td]Negate Cover bonus to AC for attack[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Stagger[/td][td]-8[/td][td]Foe loses next move action[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Stun[/td][td]-24[/td][td]Target stunned 1 round[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Sundering Attack[/td][td]-8[/td][td]Deal damage against object or weapon foe carries[/td][/tr][/table]
 
[table=Maneuver Drawbacks]
[tr][th]Name[/th][th]Keyword[/th][th]Penalty Reduction[/th][th]Description[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Attack of Opportunity, Target Only[/td][td]Attack of Opportunity[/td][td]4 or 8[/td][td]Suffer attack of opportunity from target, perhaps ruining maneuver[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Attack of Opportunity, Total[/td][td]Attack of Opportunity[/td][td]8 or 12[/td][td]Provoke attack of opportunity from all foes, perhaps ruining maneuver[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Effects Only[/td][td]Damage[/td][td]4[/td][td]Inflict only maneuver effects, not standard damage; maneuver is made as a touch attack[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Free Strike[/td][td]Attack of Opportunity[/td][td]8[/td][td]Foe automatically hits with free strike[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Full-Round Action[/td][td]Action[/td][td]4[/td][td]Maneuver requires full-round action[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Opposed Check[/td][td]Defense[/td][td]4[/td][td]Target makes opposed attack roll, skill check, or ability check to avoid effect[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Overpowering Effort[/td][td]Effort[/td][td]4[/td][td]Lose Dex bonus to AC until next action[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Overwhelming Effort[/td][td]Effort[/td][td]4[/td][td]Fall prone after completing maneuver[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Reflective Attack[/td][td]Counter[/td][td]4[/td][td]Foe has chance to use your maneuver on you[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Reflective Effects[/td][td]Counter[/td][td]8[/td][td]You suffer maneuver's effects[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Saving Throw[/td][td]Defense[/td][td]4[/td][td]Target allowed save to avoid effects[/td][/tr][/table][/spoiler]

With those maneuver effects and drawbacks, you can reverse engineer the basic maneuvers from 3E (Interestingly, reverse engineering these maneuvers actually shows why some maneuvers were perceived weaker than others). I am using the maneuvers as written in the 3.5 PHB, just interpreting them with this system:

[ic=BULL RUSH]Effect: Forced Movement (-8), Close Quarters (-4), No Attack Roll (-4)
Drawbacks: Attack of Opportunity, Total (+4), Effects Only (+4), Str Check (+4)
Total: 0
As an add-hoc trade-off, the opponent can only be moved backwards, but in return you can move them farther than 5 feet if you exceed their strength check by greater numbers (5 feet for every 5 points you exceed). Close Quarters is an ad-hoc bonus that pays for the attacks of opportunity against you having a 25% chance to hit your target.[/ic]

[ic=DISARM]Effect: Disarming Attack (-16), No Attack Roll (-4)
Drawbacks: Attack of Opportunity Disrupts (+4), Opposed Attack (+4), Effects Only (+4), Reflective (+4)
Total: 0[/ic]

[ic=OVERRUN]Effect: Knock-Down (-16), No Attack Roll (-4), Part of Movement (-4)
Drawbacks: Attack of Opportunity (+4), Opponent can Avoid (+4), Opposed Str (+4), Effects Only (+4), Reflective (+4)
Total: 0[/ic]

[ic=SUNDER]Effect: Sundering Attack (-8), No Attack Roll (-4)
Drawbacks: Attack of Opportunity (+4), Opposed Attack (+4), Effects Only (+4)
Total: 0[/ic]

[ic=TRIP]Effect: Knock-Down (-16)
Drawbacks: Attack of Opportunity (+4), Strength Check (+4), Effects Only (+4), Reflective (+4)
Total: 0[/ic]

When you look at the maneuvers this way, you can begin to see while Bull Rush and Sunder were used less than the other maneuvers. While the maneuvers are all balanced, the effect of Bull Rush and Sunder are smaller than the other effects; this comes into affect when applying feats to improve them. For instance, this is how Improved Trip works:

[ic=IMPROVED TRIP]Effect: Knock-Down (-8; halved from feat)
Drawbacks: Strength Check (+4), Effects Only (+4), Reflective (+4)
Total: +4; This +4 bonus is used to pay for the extra attack you gain if the trip is successful. The additional +4 to your trip check is a function of the non-maneuver part of the feat (all feats are worth 2 maneuver points automatically, and +4 to an ability check sounds like a 2 point ability to me). [/ic]

Feats are worth 2 maneuver points on their own based on Weapon Specialization; +2 damage would cost 4 maneuver points, which is divided by 2 to become 2 maneuver points, which are paid for by the feat. This is why the 'Improved X' feats work by cutting the maneuver cost in half rather than simply adding points to the maneuver; if you added points to the maneuver you would need to add 8 points to accommodate the cost of Improved Trip (Knock-Down is -16, Strength Check is +4, Effects Only is +4, Reflective is +4, Extra Attack is +4, and +4 to the check is +4, totaling +8). If an 'Improved X' feat was worth 8 points, someone could use that to construct a feat which grants +4 damage (+4 damage is -8, paid for by the feat).

As another example, here is how Power Attack works with the maneuver system:

[ic=POWER ATTACK (Maneuver)]Effect: +1 Extra damage (-2)
Total: -2 to hit. [/ic]

[ic=POWER ATTACK (Feat)]Effect: +1 Extra Damage (-1; halved from feat)
Total: 0; the base 2 for the feat pays for this damage being doubled when a two-handed weapon is used. [/ic]

-------------------------

With the 3E version of the system analyzed, I can discuss how it applies to 4E. Luckily, 4E's feats are mostly simple. It is the scaling nature of 4E feats which will help determine how maneuvers must scale. Power Attack and Weapon Focus will both serve as examples for how the feat side of the 4E maneuver system will scale.

Power Attack requires a -2 penalty for a +2 bonus to damage, and it comes with a +50% damage bonus if you use a two-handed weapon as part of the feat. This matches up perfectly with the 3E maneuver system, if the +50% maneuver damage bonus is considered a valid ad-hoc 4 maneuver points (which is then divided by 2 to equal 2). But the damage doubles at Paragon Tier, and triples at Epic Tier. At Heroic tier, +2 damage is 4 maneuver points, +4 damage is 8 maneuver points, and +6 damage is 12 maneuver points. This suggests that the 'Signature Maneuver' feat will divide maneuver costs by 2 at heroic level, by 4 at paragon level, and by 6 at epic level, and give an additional 2 points ontop of that.

Weapon Focus grants a +2 bonus to damage, which come with a -4 attack penalty if used as an untrained maneuver. That cost is paid for by the feat. The damage scales to +4 at Paragon (8 maneuver points), and to +6 at Epic (12 maneuver points). If we use the dividers determined through analyzing power attack, the value of the feat remains a consistant 2 points.

I will also be looking at changing the 'Bonus Damage' maneuver to be 'Bonus Weapon Damage Die'. This will help with the construction of maneuvers that look more like Powers.

[spoiler=4E Effects][table=4E Maneuver Effects and Costs][tr][th]Effect[/th][th]Cost[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Blinded: You grant Combat Advantage; you can't see any target (your targets have Total Concealment); -10 Perception; you can't flank an enemy.[/td][td]?[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Dazed: You grant Combat Advantage; you can take only a single action (and free actions); you can't take immediate or opportunity actions; you can't flank an enemy. [/td][td]?[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Deafened: You can't hear anything; you take a -10 penalty to Perception checks. [/td][td]?[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Dominated: You're Dazed; the dominating creature chooses your action (the only powers it can make you use are at-will powers). [/td][td]?[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Dying: You're Unconscious; you're at 0 or negative hit points; you make a death saving throw every round. [/td][td]?[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Helpless: You grant Combat Advantage; you can be the target of a Coup de Grace. [/td][td]?[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Immobilized: You can't move from your space, although you can Teleport and can be subject to Forced Movement. [/td][td]?[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Marked: You take a -2 penalty to attack rolls for any attack that doesn't target the creature that marked you. [/td][td]?[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Petrified: You have been turned to stone; you can't take actions; you gain resist 20 to all damage; you are unaware of your surroundings; you don't age. [/td][td]?[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Prone: You grant Combat Advantage to enemies making melee attacks against you; you get a +2 bonus to all defenses against ranged attacks from non-adjacent enemies; you're lying on the ground (flying creatures may fall); you take a -2 penalty to attack rolls. [/td][td]?[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Restrained: You grant Combat Advantage; you're immobilized; you can't be subject to Forced Movement; you take a -2 penalty to attack rolls. [/td][td]?[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Slowed: Your speed becomes 2 (does not apply to teleportation or to forced movement). [/td][td]?[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Stunned: You grant Combat Advantage; you can't take actions; you can't flank an enemy. [/td][td]?[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Surprised: You grant Combat Advantage; you can't take actions, other than free actions; you can't flank an enemy. [/td][td]?[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Unconscious: You're Helpless; you take a -5 penalty to all defenses; you can't take actions; you fall prone, if possible; you can't flank an enemy. [/td][td]?[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Weakened: Your attacks deal half damage (ongoing damage you deal is not affected). [/td][td]?[/td][/tr][/table][/spoiler]

[Xeviat]

Magic Item Philosophy
Magic is a part of the world. A +3 sword is simply a sword whose spirit has grown much more powerful than the spirit of a mundane sword. This spirit could have been empowered by a master smith's ritualistic and masterful crafting process, or perhaps simply by the heroic deeds of it's wielder.

But I would like it if magic items were not required for a character to be competative. I am on the fence between a D&D style game where players try to fill every available slot with magic, or a more literary style game where a magic item is a major and defining part of a character. I would like to see a game where a player could be stripped of all items, pick up a club, and still face challenges appropriate of their level; they should want their stuff back, but they should be able to access the vast majority of their abilities.

[Ninja D!]

I'm surprised that this didn't happen a long time ago, honestly.

[Xeviat]

I was trying to love 4E. I decided that we can be friends, but I'm not ready to make a commitment with it.

[Ninja D!]

I feel the same way, I suppose.  If you have a group that will go along with you in this, you are fortunate.

[Poseptune]

Interesting stuff.

How do you plan on implementing skills? 3E's skill points and ranks, or 4E's trained/untrained?



The following are just ideas I've had in the past and ideas I've gotten while reading what you want to do. If you already have a concrete idea about how you are going to implement the elements below then please ignore.

*The system will be level-based, but possibly not class-based: I require a level-based system because I feel levels are a simple way of determining character balance and what level of threat the players will be able to handle. I may or may not use classes, as it all depends on what kind of feat/talent system I end up utilizing.

*An open-ended maneuver system:
[/quote]
Magic Item Philosophy

But I would like it if magic items were not required for a character to be competative. I am on the fence between a D&D style game where players try to fill every available slot with magic, or a more literary style game where a magic item is a major and defining part of a character. I would like to see a game where a player could be stripped of all items, pick up a club, and still face challenges appropriate of their level; they should want their stuff back, but they should be able to access the vast majority of their abilities.
[/quote]

This all depends on your monsters, NPC's and Attack/Defense system. You've already stated that you wanted to keep your attack and defense close, so that shouldn't be a problem. If you want magic items to boost the characters, but if they don't have the items they aren't dead meat, then  create your monsters/NPC's as such.

If you set the AC for monsters at just above the average character's average attack then magic items will be a boost as it will put them at or above the AC of the monster, but they should still be able to hit them with a normal weapon. Though it'll just be a little harder.

Also if you make magic items grant powers, rather than stat boost you can forgo the +3 bonuses from weapons and items. Instead a sword once wielded (or crafted by) a famous air charka person allows the user to send a burst of air pushing back all enemies (possibly allies too) [Mechanic(in pseudo 4e terms for this example): Once per day Burst 1, make an attack+2 vs fortitude. Hit: Creature is pushed backwards a number of squares equal to (item level/2, agility mod, or etc... whatever you use). Miss: Creatures are pushed backwards one square.] You could also (if you use a Power Point system) allow them to put power points into the weapon to use the ability again. This makes magic weapons/items useful and wanted, but the characters could live without them.

[LordVreeg]

REALLY LIKING WHAT i AM READINGG SO FAR

[blockquote=HorseLord]Also if you make magic items grant powers, rather than stat boost you can forgo the +3 bonuses from weapons and items. Instead a sword once wielded (or crafted by) a famous air charka person allows the user to send a burst of air pushing back all enemies (possibly allies too) [Mechanic(in pseudo 4e terms for this example): Once per day Burst 1, make an attack+2 vs fortitude. Hit: Creature is pushed backwards a number of squares equal to (item level/2, agility mod, or etc... whatever you use). Miss: Creatures are pushed backwards one square.] You could also (if you use a Power Point system) allow them to put power points into the weapon to use the ability again. This makes magic weapons/items useful and wanted, but the characters could live without them. [/blockquote]

Agreed most heartily.  I use a lot of low power magic, but little high power, so it changes the PC's idea of what is a cool item.  As mentioned above, I prefer charged items that use thr magic system of the world more than a +3 sword.  I have some materials that are better to create an item, and there are weapons that hit a little better or damage a little more, but that aid skills ((we use a skill based system, so SaucePans of Masscookery are possible) or have a few charges of spells in the system built into them, that make it better than normal a few swings a day at most.

[Xeviat]

Only problem I see is that depending on how you implement weapons, characters may only pick the most powerful weapons skill and leave the rest. Basically it opens the floodgates to Min/Maxxers, but it also allows those that have a solid character concept the freedom to create that character.

If you make Perception an ability score instead of a skill I can see you pulling this off for the hide and move silently vs a Defense. What about bluff and insight(Sense Motive) though?[/quote]

Sense Motive seems to fall into the same category as a catch-all Perception Defense. You're sensing tone changes, incongruities in their statements, and what-not. I'm not 100% convinced, though. As much as I want 8 ability scores, I do recognize that without some sort of breakthrough, it's going to be very difficult to make it work.

As for the power system you talk about, that's sort of what I'm thinking of for my thing. Every effect has a cost, but as you gain levels you could automatically gain points towards maneuvers. Higher level people are simply better able to do maneuvers with lower penalty. Now, this could be handled by the feats taken to make signature maneuvers, but I'd like to encourage people to not just ride a single maneuver; fans of Mutants and Masterminds will know how they handle Alternate Powers, charging someone just one feat to be able to turn one power into another (like Cyclopse could turn his optic blast from a single target attack to a single target attack with knockback, or an area effect attack); they aren't charged the full price for alternate abilites.

This shows that, while having options does increase one's power, it doesn't do it as much as making someone buy each thing individually.

Putting powers on magic items rather than statistical boosts could be the answer I'm looking for. The more I think of it, the more I lean towards M&M's approach to items (charging character points for them), but that doesn't feel natural. If the players could agree to a magic item and XP philosophy where their expenditure of character points determines if I'll put a magic item in the game for them, it might work best that way. I just don't like the idea, rather than the implimentation.

[Xeviat]

I updated the Maneuver post, detailing the 3E version of the Maneuver system and my thoughts on translating it to 4E. I will be going through the 4E powers (starting with the non-casters because they're slightly simpler, having less effects to deal with) and try to determine a weight to the different effects.

[Nomadic]

I am really loving that maneuver system (so much so that I might steal it at some point if its ok :P ). You are also right about it explaining the power of 3e feats.

On the topic of balancing magic items with the system properly, I believe that can be achieved through a proper mix of weapon abilities. Make sure that magic weapons and mundane weapons aren't too far apart in terms of to hit bonuses (though there could be a few aiming weapons for those that desire such). Instead give magic weapons certain special abilities. Maybe the Goretusk Axe of Light provides illumination in dark places and the use of a directed flash of light to blind or dazzle opponents. An axe of similar quality is going to hit as hard and as often but its owner will still search for their old Goretusk because its abilities were a boon to them in dark places.