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Your Reimagined D&D Systems

Started by Ishmayl-Retired, September 17, 2008, 10:39:16 AM

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Ishmayl-Retired

I'm hoping we can start an extensive discussion that will spark my own creativity, since I'm finding 4E (as well as 3E/3.5E) sorely lacking in the aspects I need.  Hoping to be inspired by you guys and your creativity.  Or maybe I'll see something worth stealing? :)
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Xeviat

Well Ishmayl, maybe you'd like to discuss with me what you're looking for in a modified D&D system, as that is exactly what I'm working on as I type (well not AS I type, as that would require rediculous multitasking).

Anyway, what started me was that 4E's power system wasn't really doing what I wanted it to do. Not only did the power system make me realize I was playing a game every time I used it (Fighter can only trip once per encounter, and only if they take Sweeping Blow?), but the power system also makes it difficult to create new classes as you need to come up with at least 24 powers for the class to function without options.

Additionally, I came to realize that the D&D spell-casting classes were not going to work for what my setting needed. Now I am putting together a system which will largely be compatable with 4E (as I'm keeping the player numbers in line with monster numbers). My system is going to be a blend of d20 Modern and SWSaga ideas, using 4E's concept of even defense and attack progressions (ability score and small class bonus differences will ensure that non-warrior characters have a lower attack bonus with weapons). My system is being built to be as simulationist as 3E was, but only where it can be done simply.

Take a look at my thread please.

You know that I've made my own MP system for 3E, but it was really only an expansion on the Psionic Power Point idea.
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Matt Larkin (author)

Why not just consider a different system entirely? GURPS, Burning Wheel, TRoS, WFRP?
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Ishmayl-Retired

Oh, I'm also considering those, Phoenix, I just haven't found one that really speaks to me yet.  I've looked at GURPs, FATE, Exalted, Agone, and Deadlands (the original), and out of those, I'm not terribly impressed with any of them.

Xeviat - The two main issues I have are in the class system and in the "magic system."  Quite frankly, I hate magic in 4E, and I really want to try to find a way to implement some sort of "on the cuff" spell system, like the Belgariad's "Will and the Word," or even Jordan's "Wheel of Time" system (though without the heavy elemental focus).
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SilvercatMoonpaw

What exactly is "off the cuff"?  You mean making the spell up on the spot based upon components such as range and duration?  Have you looked at the Elements of Magic books from EN Publishing?  Those are d20-based "build your own" systems.

Also there's more than one "build your class as you go" system available if you look.  (Though I'm assuming you have.)
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Quote from: IshmaylThe two main issues I have are in the class system and in the "magic system."
I'm sort of surprised FATE didn't do it for you, then.

I've been looking so hard at Spirit of the Century because it's the first published project using FATE 3rd edition (as opposed to FATE 2nd edition, which is what is currently free to use.) Evil Hat is releasing Dresden Files RPG (also based on FATE 3rd Ed.), and then releasing FATE 3rd Ed. by itself, setting-neutral and flexible. (I'm so optimistic about the prospects that rather than waiting, I'm trying to reverse-engineer FATE 3rd Ed. ahead of time by dissecting SotC.)

But it seems like it'd be what you're looking for. It's certainly classless, and magic (like everything else) is off-the-cuff.
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Xeviat

Ish, my system is on path to be class-less and have an off-the-cuff magic system. As a character gains ranks in various magic skills, they'll have more points to spend towards constructing maneuvers. I'm going to be using a modification of the 3E maneuver system made by Mike Mearls for "Book of Iron Might".

I could really use your input Ish, if only input towards what you would enjoy.
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LordVreeg

ok.  I'll need to segment my answers.  But Ish was correct in mentioning that preCeltricia, I had been using more and more'housed' versions of D&D.  I just got to a point that to create the setting I wanted to, a combat heavy game was not going to work.  
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Arthnek

Ish, you can do anything in Fantasy Hero.  While it has the most work on the front end of any game system I know..if you want to adopt it to a personal campaign and stuff and not run generic fantasy...it is easily the most flexible and creative system I've seen.

If I'm not going to play fantasy with D&D in some form or another I'm using Fantasy Hero.

Eladris

I'm math/cs freak, and yeah, I balk at the removal of all-things-role-playing from the 4e system, but the crunch is good.  We can spin a story without dice, but when its time for combat I like to have a good set of rules to work with, which is why I've stuck with D&D.  The magic fluff is terrible; but there's nothing stopping you from (as Moniker suggested) allowing Encounter/Daily power regeneration or crafting your own spells.

snakefing

I'm probably swimming against the tide, but I've gone from preferring classless to preferring classes. Just not the way D&D does them.

The character class represents a character's primary role within the society of the game world. It should be representative of the game world itself. It should help communicate these roles to the players. It should help make a place in the game world for the characters. It should not be a rigid constraint; it should instead represent both the constraints and the flexibility that an individual character experiences as a member of a culture and society.

To me, this means the class has to have enough constraint to give structure to the character's world; yet allow enough flexibility to allow and enhance individuality. It also means that it should be relatively easy for a GM to customize or completely rebuild character classes that represent the various cultures and the roles they define for people within them. I regard the specific character classes as feature of the game world, not the game system. The game system merely facilitates the creation of classes.

I felt that D&D 3e had all the right pieces in place, but they didn't do what they could have with them. So what I'm doing is pretty much just what the thread title said: Re-imagining D&D as the game it could have been, were it not weighted down with 30 years worth of baggage.
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Eladris

Quote from: snakefingThe character class represents a character's primary role within the society of the game world. It should be representative of the game world itself. It should help communicate these roles to the players. It should help make a place in the game world for the characters. It should not be a rigid constraint; it should instead represent both the constraints and the flexibility that an individual character experiences as a member of a culture and society.

I could not agree more.  I am very much in the same boat you are here; I was completely against classes for a long time, but with experience as a DM I've realized their power in helping guide a player into a role in the story or group.  I think it takes a very special group for everyone to feel accomplished without those pre-defined roles, no matter how loose they may be.  Certainly, as a player I prefer some definition of my character's role when things get hairy -- whether I'm the talker or the fighter or a bit of both -- and maybe that's because I am a very structured thinker.

I don't agree that 3/3.5 handled classes well at all.  They were as limiting as 4e, but without helping to define a player's role in the group or world.  Being a Brd 1/Src 1/Wiz 1/Pal 1/Ftr 1 just made you a system failure when standing next to a Wiz 5, not a diversified individual capable of aiding the group in many unique ways.  4e hits the other extreme, where forced adherence to a role makes no one "well rounded" in terms of ability.

I'm sure there's an ideal compromise, but I don't think that D&D will find it with its current focus on emulating MMOs in its attempts to stay afloat.

Ishmayl-Retired

Personally, I am a fan of classes - I thought (not too long ago) that I would like to move into a classless system, but I do believe there are very good ways of playing in a class-based system without limiting oneself to specific stereotypes.  I just don't think 4E succeeded in making that good class system.  I think it's a very fun game so far, but it's not the game for me.

Snakefing and Eldris, could you explain more about what you mean with classes representing the primary role of individuals in the game world?  It sounded like you were aiming towards something I want to hear more about, but you stopped before you got there! :)
!turtle Ishmayl, Overlord of the CBG

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For finite types, like human beings, getting the mind around the concept of infinity is tough going.  Apparently, the same is true for cows.

Eladris

Well, I've worked on a number of systems with friends, though most of them have been to *cough* chickenshit *cough* to actually try running or playing in a game with our homebrew rules.  The system I enjoyed the most involved an open distribution of abilities, but with classes existing as a goal -- similar to PrCs from 3/3.5 -- that, once reached, provided extra benefits to the character.  

For example, let's say Thief exists as a class that requires X build points in several skills.  Once those requirements have been met, a player gains a certain benefit, say the ability to reroll a stealth once per day.  Player A allocates X build points towards these skills.  Player A now receives the bonuses of the Thief class, but is no longer required allocate skills into that role.  He can focus his attention next on the Wizard class, or continue putting points into sneak-related skills to reach another, higher requirement class like Assassin or Master Thief.