The Cadaverous Earth

[Steerpike]

[ooc]Hmm this is tricky; I keep rewriting this post with different ideas for mechanics.

The idea I want, I think, is that without nectar the risk of going mad is pretty slim.  You reach your mental threshold after a certain amount of numina has been channeled, and you can't normally exceed it.  It's like running out of breath.  Nectar would allow you not to alter your threshold but to transgress it, to run through the pain (and potentially rip your muscles).  Therefore you can keep channeling, or channel higher level spells, but you'd incur a risk of madness and debilitation.  No one has a personal numina pool: only the amount of numina they can channel from the aether.

In mechanical terms I envision a hybrid of Vancian/mana based magic.  You have to learn spells and memorize them (you can't fit an unlimited number of spells in your head, nor do you gain them organically or intuitively like a DnD sorcerer) but they don't disappear after casting as Vancian spells do.  Instead, what gets added up is a number of numina points leading up to your personal limit, which would be a function of mental endurance.  Nectar allows you to exceed that limit, but at your peril.  In practice, the more powerful spells would require much more numina than almost any caster could naturally provide.  Hence, nectar becomes vitally important to cast anything significant.  It also means that casting powerful spells is inherently dangerous.[/ooc]

[Steerpike]

[ooc]Added a creature to the Bestiary - the xsur, CE's take on the wyvern or the yrthak.[/ooc]

[Superfluous Crow]

Sufficiently alien i'd say. The sonic weapon does call up images of yrthaks although my mental image is decidedly more ray-like.
Any clues as to what the Cultivar Technocracy and the gullfolk are?

[Steerpike]

[ooc]The gullfolk (or sirae) have been mentioned once before, rather esoterically.  They're a race of vaguely harpy-like humanoids (gull heads and wings for arms) who dwell along the southern parts of the Serrated Coast and specialize in a song-based form of witchcraft to lull their prey into submission.  They're technologically primitive, tribal, and cantankerous, often attacking ships and travelers.  I'll probably give them a complete writeup at some point.

The Cultivar Technocracy is one of these innumerable little civilzations I'm trying to hint at... the idea was they made these massive living structures (similar to the magisters' towers in Skein) but then died out, leaving their edifices to die and then slowly decompose.  When I do a writeup for the Serrated Coast I'm going to go into them more fully.[/ooc]

[Superfluous Crow]

I think one of the things that really adds to your setting is that you hint at all this more or less strange stuff even when you haven't written anything up for it yet. Makes your setting seem extensive and sprawling and intriguing as it leaves a lot of questions answered. Sounds like you do this on purpose as well, which is quite clever.
Also, you use names and words to the same effect by picking extremely arcane words (hadn't even heard words like fecundity before). Helps giving it all an air of added mystery.

[LD]

The Cultivar Technocracy is one of these innumerable little civilzations I'm trying to hint at... the idea was they made these massive living structures (similar to the magisters' towers in Skein) but then died out, leaving their edifices to die and then slowly decompose. When I do a writeup for the Serrated Coast I'm going to go into them more fully.

[/spoiler] Did you have those in mind when you wrote it?

[Steerpike]

[ooc]Hieronymous, yes (and Giger, and Dali).   The latter, no... but those are pretty sweet.[/ooc]

[LordVreeg]

I'm having trouble with Numina being the 'source' of power, or at least the only source of magical energy.

[blockquote=SP] Witch-addicts daily inject themselves with the throbbing golden sap known as nectar, and daily they go mad in droves, or burn from the inside out from overdose. Leechkin moan for blood from their rasping mouths or rampage through the southern swamps in thirsty rage, while lilix and wealthy ghilan libertines drink it from overflowing and antique chalices. Hideous and gray-skinned eidolons garb themselves in youthful glamers sustained through the vitality of their prey, while demons sup on more abstract energies.

Everyone wants something. Everyone must feed. Even as it rots this world hungers and consumes[/blockquote]
SO I have no problem with Blood magic/hunger being a another format/system/methodology for accessing Numina.  But I am getting a vibe for actual soul-stealing or life energy, which seems to be different from the 'collective unconsious' ideal of Numina.  And this also DOES seem to fit into the hideously attractive gestalt of CE.
The Souls/life energy COULD merely be a magnifier [note=yummy] "Oh, honey, I used to try to cast that same 'PoisonGuard' without a sacrifice, and I was tired for DAYS, but once the Verlumite church taught me to add in a envenomed Mantid child killed in the ritual, I can cast it and still go sell some girls to the Witch-Army at night."[/note], or it could be it's own source, but your setting reeks of those willing to use the energy of others rather than their own.
Also, in reading your requirements for the system, and the hybrid nature of it, some of your major limitations are

How many spells a creature can keep in their head

How much Numina they can channell at once

 
How long do you intend to have it take to PUT a spell in a person's head? Will they have a spellbook with a lot more spells than they can use at once, and have to memorize them?  Or once they learn a spell, they don't forget it, but they can only cram so many in their head?  ANd what about scrolls or readiong from books?

And how fast does the ability to pull Numina recharge?  I have been using a formula lately that allows a good % to come back quickly, but the last 20% or so  comes back much slower.  DO you like it to be Vancian in that it all comes back after rest, or do you want to make the spell use more strategic?  Perhaps the use of nectar does not help the ability to recharge, so after casting more than you can naturally, not only do you risk mental damage, it takes longer to come back (unless the caster uses more nectar...risking even more damage...?)

[Superfluous Crow]

If we continue the language allegory, it seems like an obvious consequence that some languages are better at communicating a specific idea than others are. Just as there can be languages that have no pronouns or temporal conjugation, there can be magical traditions where the imbuing of a word takes a lot of time or where there is no way to say "mind". So you should probably consider what ideas each magical language is best at transmitting. Shamanism, for example, is probably a slow language, but also a fairly accurate one. Might also be one where the symbol has a capability of striking back at the caster if "the spirits" are angry.
Separate vancian spells clearly make the most sense for the system, and i think it makes the most sense to have them be non-scalable so that every spell is as specific an entity as possible. More numina doesn't make you able to "boost" your spells but rather makes you able to fire more of them off and continue for longer. This also meshes better with more visceral and violent systems where they don't use hit points. (those systems seem to fit the system best)
For incantations, would you load them with meaning (invoke them) before use, and then pronounce the words with their associated meaning later, or do you invoke at the same time as you cast? That is, is the difficult and dangerous part of the procedure part of preparation or casting? To have it all be one fluid process would probably be the easiest and most meaningful as nectar would be injected in battle/at time of casting instead of in the morning during preparation.
So within each language, every spell has an associated complexity (some words are easier in some languages than others). This complexity should probably have an associated cost and difficulty class of casting. Failures here would lead to either fatigue or insanity (temporary or chronic). Ingestion of nectar would increase all difficulty classes but also give you access to a bigger pool of numina to draw from. Alternatively it could reduce the DC but follow a different table for failures so that the failures are more dramatic and dangerous.
I do not think preparation in the vancian way makes sense. They don't store the spells or anything. They just know a set of "phrases" in their magical language, each one requiring some breath (numina) to say. Learning a new "phrase"/spell would take time and effort, all depending on the language, and would probably be factored into some kind of XP/advancement system. You could set the DC's slightly higher, though, and have the player ready a few spells by reading up on the theory and thus reducing the DC. So he has continous access to all his spells, but can only clearly remember the few he recently read about.
The spells are insanely dangerous as far as i can read, so i think that a non-nectar caster should only be able to cast a few of them (at least as far as combat hexes go). Glyphs should probably be a bit less costly. Are mages singularly devoted to their skill like in DnD where they can't wield weapons and do most everything through magic? Or is magic something that they only use on occasion when things get tight or it seems extraordinarily useful?

[Steerpike]

[ooc]Ooh, lots more fun with magic!  Thanks so much guys, for helping me start to really hammer this out...

My first responses: [blockquote=Vreeg]SO I have no problem with Blood magic/hunger being a another format/system/methodology for accessing Numina. But I am getting a vibe for actual soul-stealing or life energy, which seems to be different from the 'collective unconsious' ideal of Numina. And this also DOES seem to fit into the hideously attractive gestalt of CE.
The Souls/life energy COULD merely be a magnifier.
Also, in reading your requirements for the system, and the hybrid nature of it, some of your major limitations are

How many spells a creature can keep in their head


How much Numina they can channell at once


How long do you intend to have it take to PUT a spell in a person's head? Will they have a spellbook with a lot more spells than they can use at once, and have to memorize them? Or once they learn a spell, they don't forget it, but they can only cram so many in their head? And what about scrolls or readiong from books?[/blockquote]The passage you cited was intended as an overview of addiction in CE rather than one of witchcraft; blood wasn't originally intended as a spell ingredient.  Hence the soul-feeding is also not a spellcasting ingredient: demons just eat that kind of thing.  That said, I loved your hilarious aside about sacrifices, so I'm starting to reconsider the blood/power thing... it seems like I might be verging on Kindling's Knife's Edge if I do, but maybe I can tweak it more.  We'll see.

Casters would carry around a spellbook like DnD wizards, but can only fit so many hexes at once into their brains.  Its worth mentioning at this juncture that I envision a lot of magic as ritualistic, to use the 4E terminology - that is, slower and less combat-driven.  Memorizing would be handled similarly as in DnD.  Scrolls/reading is trickier.  I like the idea that for invocation to be effect you can't be reading from a script: you can't give meaning to words if you're just parroting them.  I like the idea of scrolls, however, which puts me in an awkward poisition re:the metaphysics of witchcraft.[blockquote=Vreeg]And how fast does the ability to pull Numina recharge? I have been using a formula lately that allows a good % to come back quickly, but the last 20% or so comes back much slower. DO you like it to be Vancian in that it all comes back after rest, or do you want to make the spell use more strategic? Perhaps the use of nectar does not help the ability to recharge, so after casting more than you can naturally, not only do you risk mental damage, it takes longer to come back (unless the caster uses more nectar...risking even more damage...?)[/blockquote]I almost like the idea, as I think Cataclysmic Crow suggested, that it doesn't have to recharge.  There's just a limit that every character has that they can't cast over, like a spell level, and nectar allows them to transgress it.

If I was to do a recharge rate it'd probably be tied to dreaming rather than sleep.  Dreams and the aether are definitely connected somehow in CE: the oneiroi are nightmares-made-flesh, and they emerge from an aether bleed.  So perhaps a caster needs to dream to recharge their numina-channeling abilities - if I went down that route.  [blockquote=Cataclysmic Crow] Posted:  Sun Mar 29 2009, 09:11AM
If we continue the language allegory, it seems like an obvious consequence that some languages are better at communicating a specific idea than others are. Just as there can be languages that have no pronouns or temporal conjugation, there can be magical traditions where the imbuing of a word takes a lot of time or where there is no way to say "mind". So you should probably consider what ideas each magical language is best at transmitting. Shamanism, for example, is probably a slow language, but also a fairly accurate one. Might also be one where the symbol has a capability of striking back at the caster if "the spirits" are angry. [/blockquote]This is brilliant!  I was thinking of something vaguely along the same lines, but hadn't tied it to the metaphysics... I like this idea a lot.  Very Sapir-Whorf.  [blockquote=ibid.]Separate vancian spells clearly make the most sense for the system, and i think it makes the most sense to have them be non-scalable so that every spell is as specific an entity as possible. More numina doesn't make you able to "boost" your spells but rather makes you able to fire more of them off and continue for longer. This also meshes better with more visceral and violent systems where they don't use hit points. (those systems seem to fit the system best) [/blockquote]A deadly system would definitely suit CE well in some respects.  I think CE players would have to be up for having their characters transformed/made mad/killed/diseased etc regularly.  Kind of like Cthulu players have to be wary of these things.  The problem is that this tends to discourage character development because no one wants to put energy into creating a chartacter.  The ideal middle ground, I suppose, is having a deadly system in which the PCs are very cautious, but still take enough risks to have fun. [blockquote=ibid.]For incantations, would you load them with meaning (invoke them) before use, and then pronounce the words with their associated meaning later, or do you invoke at the same time as you cast? That is, is the difficult and dangerous part of the procedure part of preparation or casting? To have it all be one fluid process would probably be the easiest and most meaningful as nectar would be injected in battle/at time of casting instead of in the morning during preparation.
[/blockquote]Its gets channeled during the casting, not the preparation.  With hexes, the "object" of invocation is the uttered word; with glyphs, a written letter.  Its never the pre-existing words on the page... except that maybe that's just what scrolls are!  Aha!  Problem solved![blockquote=ibid.]So within each language, every spell has an associated complexity (some words are easier in some languages than others). This complexity should probably have an associated cost and difficulty class of casting. Failures here would lead to either fatigue or insanity (temporary or chronic). Ingestion of nectar would increase all difficulty classes but also give you access to a bigger pool of numina to draw from. Alternatively it could reduce the DC but follow a different table for failures so that the failures are more dramatic and dangerous.
I do not think preparation in the vancian way makes sense. They don't store the spells or anything. They just know a set of "phrases" in their magical language, each one requiring some breath (numina) to say. Learning a new "phrase"/spell would take time and effort, all depending on the language, and would probably be factored into some kind of XP/advancement system. You could set the DC's slightly higher, though, and have the player ready a few spells by reading up on the theory and thus reducing the DC. So he has continous access to all his spells, but can only clearly remember the few he recently read about. [/blockquote]Yeah, something like this idea could work.  Basically what I want to take from Vance is: a) magic is a linguistic/mathematical system, b) memory is involved because in order to tap into that system, you need to have understood a spell, c) you can only memorize so many spells at once, and d) cool spell names.  I don't think its necessary to "burn" the spell out of your brain as Vance does after casting.  But if you try to memroize a new spell, over your limit of spells memorizable, you'd have to ditch an old one.  So somewhere between spontaneous and non-spontaneous casting, in DnD terms.[blockquote=ibid.]The spells are insanely dangerous as far as i can read, so i think that a non-nectar caster should only be able to cast a few of them (at least as far as combat hexes go). Glyphs should probably be a bit less costly. Are mages singularly devoted to their skill like in DnD where they can't wield weapons and do most everything through magic? Or is magic something that they only use on occasion when things get tight or it seems extraordinarily useful?[/blockquote]I'm imagining a pretty organic and probably classless system, so either style of magic-use could easily work.  If it was a classed sort of system it'd probably encourage mulit-classing heavily.  I don't think I'll enforce the spells/armour issue because that always seemed contrived, and because heavy armour doesn't real work in a world with so many gunpowder weapons (I know that bullets can sometimes be stopped by heavy armour, but basically heavy plate isn't around much in CE).

Thanks again, guys... this is really, really, helpful![/ooc]

[Superfluous Crow]

You're saying that a visceral system has issues with players not being devoted enough to their character, but that mostly depends on focus. Games like UnMet (yeah, i keep on going on about it...) focus on the downfall of the character rather than his ascension. They either die a heroic death or live to see both experience points and corruption. It is an inevitablity that characters become more and more corrupt and will eventually die a violent death or go insane. This seems to be in line with the thoughts behind your system. This also makes for wildly imaginative characters as players aim for a specific type of corruption.
How pulp-ish are you envisioning CE? Have you taken a look at Iron Heroes? with some sinister modifications it *might* fit in a way.

[Steerpike]

[ooc]Two smallish updates.

One is a new god in the "Gods" section - Baubo, goddess of obscenity.  I filched her whole (I wonder if anyone knows from which pantheon, without looking it up??).

The other is in the Bestiary: the Bloodwood Tree, inspired by Kindling's Fleshingrove and the creepy tooth-tree in Life of Pi.[/ooc]

[LD]

Is she from Discworld?

[Steerpike]

[ooc]No, but great guess.[/ooc]

[Superfluous Crow]

I think i saw something similar to the bloodtree in a monster manual at some point as well; it also grew servant fruits. Just black plant-men who'd hunt for it. Your description of them as foetus' hanging from the branches, though, was infinitely more creepy than anything the MM could ever evoke.