The Cadaverous Earth

[Tangential]

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

[LordVreeg]

I think 'Lamentation' would be a really, really good match for your game and style.

[Dialexis]

Beyond interest in Crepuscle, I was wondering if you had any more information on the Gloom Coasts?

[sparkletwist]

Eh. In my opinion, mechanically, Lamentation is a fairly standard and mostly uninteresting BECMI D&D retroclone. Sure, it's got a pretty distinctive style to it (and it got a decent amount of no-such-thing-as-bad publicity for its out-there art) but I feel like the CE is already dripping with style, so why not attach it to a system that is... you know... interesting.

[LordVreeg]

Eh. In my opinion, mechanically, Lamentation is a fairly standard and mostly uninteresting BECMI D&D retroclone. Sure, it's got a pretty distinctive style to it (and it got a decent amount of no-such-thing-as-bad publicity for its out-there art) but I feel like the CE is already dripping with style, so why not attach it to a system that is... you know... interesting.

The thing I like about Lamentations is the similarity in feel. It's made for weird.  But it does suffer from the over-simplicity of the D&D retroclone.  Makes it easy to teach and work with, but it shares the lack of really supporting fluff that all really simple games do over time, in my estimation.

[Steerpike]

Lamentations is a retroclone, just like Pathfinder is essentially a clone of 3.5 D&D.  That said, CE basically calls for a D&D type system, perhaps where the characters are a little more fragile and vulnerable. CE characters (by default, anyway) are very D&Dish, spending most of their time looting old ruins, working as mercenaries, and engaging in other picaresque adventures.  Iron Heroes has worked out pretty well so far, although there are some things about it that don't gel perfectly; horror is a strong theme in the setting, and characters getting too powerful could mess with that, so I think if I were starting from scratch and I went for a standard D&D rules-set I'd need to curtail PC toughness/resiliency/power at higher levels (a Pathfinder E6 variant with wounds and vigor has crossed my mind, for example).  A retroclone like Lamentations, where low-level characters tend to be more vulnerable and high level characters have limited increases to their toughness (after 10th level, Lamentations characters only get 1-3 hp per level with no Con bonus, for example), is one alternative.  There are some things I'm not wild about in Lamentations either - the old money=xp thing, for example - but those could be tweaked pretty easily.

In terms of other systems, I feel like giving players any significant narrativist-type controls in horrific games can be a bit perilous compared to, say, swashbuckling heroic games or even perhaps mystery games, because you want to cultivate an atmosphere where the players feel threatened and unsafe, and being able to drop a Fate point to assist in your escape (or whatever) undermines that; in horror, you usually want the setting to feel profoundly oppressive, alien, and hostile - in CE, rain, mist, water, trees, words, looking at things, hearing things speak or sing, reading things, eating things, drinking things, or just walking around can all be very dangerous - so giving players direct control over aspects of the setting beyond the actions of their characters sort of goes against the grain of horror, at least as I tend to run it.

So basically, I don't think a CE game really needs an interesting system, it just needs a functional one that lends itself to its core themes: dark adventure, viscerality, horror.

[Llum]

Just to note that WFRP, which has it's fair share of horror/viscerality/adventure is pretty deadly in itself, but it also has a FP mechanic. The system itself is actually very deadly from what I understand, so the FP mechanic helps alleviate this a tiny bit (they can be used to downgrade critical hits which are often fatal). The game does not get into the D&D super HP issue since base HP is 10ish and only goes up my at most 4-6 for the strongest characters. Damage from a normal person is usually d10+3ish.

As for mechanic system, I think that a Pathfinder E6, E8 or E10 variant would work very well since it has a lot of stuff that CE already has (Vancian magic, gunslingers, really amazing race book, etc)

[Steerpike]

That's fair enough - there are probably ways to do Fate Points or the like in horror without totally ruining the mood, it's just my instincts suggest that too much in that direction could mess with the tone/atmosphere.

[Dialexis]

As previously stated, another advantage of PF is its accessibility. If CE used PF mechanics, interested GMs and players could easily, freely, and legally access all the necessary PF rules on the PRD or PFsrd.

Also, I should point out that aforementioned CE-inspired campaign I've been running uses not only PF rules with armor as DR and the wound & vigor variants, but also E8 rules. Tis been a good match, as said from both sides of the gaming screen. We also use Madness/Horror rules, adapted from Raveloft's.

[Llum]

That's fair enough - there are probably ways to do Fate Points or the like in horror without totally ruining the mood, it's just my instincts suggest that too much in that direction could mess with the tone/atmosphere.

It's a good instinct, since it would it could easily get out of hand. FP in WFRP are used exactly for that, the system is so deadly that without the FP mechanic it would be *too* consistently dangerous. Which is something else you want to watch out for if you aim for longer campaigns without a massive turnover rate in adventurers. We consistently loose people on our adventures when we did the SIG, using GS.

The only thing with E6/8/10 variants is that they limit prestige classes a bit, which iirc were a pretty good part of the CE game.

[Dialexis]

The only thing with E6/8/10 variants is that they limit prestige classes a bit, which iirc were a pretty good part of the CE game.

In most cases, I would suggest specially-created, CE-specific archetypes would fill that vacuum (e.g., a rogue archetype for Whispers of the Lords and Ladies Revenant). Even with said fashioned archetypes, prestige classes could still see use in a E8-10ish setting; it's just that they, as in 'normal' PF, would have a lesser role than 3e, due to the presence of archetypes.

[Steerpike]

Archetypes are definitely a good way to handle CE-specific "classes"; many of the archetypes already fit CE very well.

As previously stated, another advantage of PF is its accessibility. If CE used PF mechanics, interested GMs and players could easily, freely, and legally access all the necessary PF rules on the PRD or PFsrd.

That's true, although the same is true of Lamentations of the Flame Princess, a copy of which can be downloaded for free sans artwork here, in both its "Grindhouse" and old Deluxe edition.

[Tangential]

As a small aside re: PrCs - when using an E# variant, I've found that exchanging 5 feats for another level which replaces one of capped # (highest first), is a good way to model rising up in the ranks of an prestigious faction in CE.

[sparkletwist]

In terms of other systems, I feel like giving players any significant narrativist-type controls in horrific games can be a bit perilous compared to, say, swashbuckling heroic games or even perhaps mystery games, because you want to cultivate an atmosphere where the players feel threatened and unsafe, and being able to drop a Fate point to assist in your escape (or whatever) undermines that; in horror, you usually want the setting to feel profoundly oppressive, alien, and hostile - in CE, rain, mist, water, trees, words, looking at things, hearing things speak or sing, reading things, eating things, drinking things, or just walking around can all be very dangerous - so giving players direct control over aspects of the setting beyond the actions of their characters sort of goes against the grain of horror, at least as I tend to run it.

Part of this, I think, is that I misread the "feel" of CE. I didn't realize that horror and creating that horrific atmosphere were such high priorities. I mean, I knew there was a lot of horrific imagery in the CE-- it's not hard to miss-- but I always got something of a "swashbuckling" or "grindhouse" vibe to it, in the sense that the horror wasn't quite so oppressive. Some of it was actually on your side (like the horrific things you'd have in your own party) and the stuff that wasn't tended to drop dead when you shredded it with blades and bullets.

That said, what I think you're really saying is that a "narrativist" system has too much narrative control in the hands of the players to be able to run effective horror. As you probably expect, I don't agree with this assertion. I won't rehash that tired old debate; I'll simply say that I think it can also be fun to let the players share in the creation of the perilous situations to put their characters into. I think even most horrific and oppressive games (except maybe Call of Cthulhu one-shots, but whatever) have a certain "cinematic" quality, and a certain expectation the players' characters will venture forth to somewhere other than an ignoble end-- a fate point could simply cover the narrow escape from the ravenous beast about to devour you, for example. The fact that you needed to expend this very limited resource in order to save your life adds a certain mechanical impact to the horror.

It is, after all, about mood and feel, and everyone has to be on board with that, regardless. The players have to be interested in creating the horror feel, regardless-- if they're not, it doesn't matter how much or little direct control over they narrative they have. (Unless the answer is "none," in which case, of course, you're not actually playing a RPG anymore)  I'll also observe that something like FATE's compels are a pretty nice way to handle madness-type effects and other situations where the GM wants to assert that a character does something-- or for that matter, "don't go in there" moments that a more "simulationist" GM would have no recourse if the players didn't bite-- so I believe there are benefits to be had, too.

[Steerpike]

There are probably ways to do horror (especially a certain type of horror) decently with Fate and its ilk, and I can see the value of compels as madness mechanics, but I feel it's best for cinematic style games where the heroes are Heroes, or at least Protagonists.  I've always said that a system for CE should be visceral-feeling - gritty and somewhat unforgiving.*  Perhaps some very minimal narrative-control type mechanics could work for CE, like the ones Llum referenced, but something like Fate works that stuff right into its DNA.

Ultimately, I do think that putting players in a position of control over the horror (as opposed to their characters' reactions to that horror) does inevitably reduce some of its menace.  Part of horror is a sense of the unknown, a feeling of claustrophobia.  Perhaps in a Call of Cthulhu one-shot, or something, the players might kind of be into the idea of their characters getting trapped and dying a gruesome death or meeting an ignoable end - that's very cinematic, a story with a beginning, middle, and end.  CE assumes more of a D&D ongoing campaign model, albeit in an especially hostile world.  In a CE campaign, I wouldn't want my players "conspiring" with me to give their characters a gruesome end, I'd want them to be fighting for gold and glory (or just their lives) in a world of horror and black adventure.

It is, after all, about mood and feel, and everyone has to be on board with that, regardless. The players have to be interested in creating the horror feel, regardless-- if they're not, it doesn't matter how much or little direct control over they narrative they have.

This is true, but I don't think mood and feel get "willed" onto the table per se - even if everyone is onboard with the idea of feeling vicariously horrified, horror still has to be cultivate or inculcated.

*There are definitely some characters in my CE game who can do stuff like take a lot of bullets and come back from it (though it's taken them quite some time and a lot of near-death experiences to get that far), but I've taken pains to keep things challenging and dangerous-feeling.  Notably with Kaius, who's a Revenant and has Fast Healing and whose clockwork armour i pretty much makes him a small tank, I've recently pitted him against characters who can slice through his armour and who deal extra damage specifically to the undead - last time TMG and I played a session Kaius was so close to death a lucky roll either way could have spelled his end.