Tempter

[Steerpike]

[ooc]Hmm, I guess I see your point.  The idea is that the Elder Ones threaten to wreck the whole game, and they really can't be negotiated with.  On the other hand, I can imagine each side still trying to use the Elder Ones to their own advantage... I think I'll add something in about that.[/ooc]

[Mason]

Wow. This is pretty bad-ass SP. Great Job.

[LordVreeg]

So we have worked our way into a triangle.  Still trying to wrap my head around a thrid major player, though it tickles my Lovecraftian side.

Somehow, i'd find it more pleasing if the angelic side was holding back the Primordials.    

[sparkletwist]

I second Ghostman.

The Marines and the Chaos Marines didn't stop fighting just because the Tyranids showed up. ;)

[Steerpike]

[ooc]The idea isn't that they stop fighting, but that when, say, cultists of the Elder Ones threaten to dissolve Creation back into primordial chaos (perhaps by unleashing the Elder Ones on the mortal plane, for example) both angels and demons start paying attention, to the point where they might put aside formerly iron-clad enmities for the time being.  I'm imagining a kind of Watchmen-like scenario: if aliens were invading the earth during the Cold War, America and Russia might have temporarily put aside their rivalry to combat a foe who threatens both sides simultaneously.  That doesn't mean that they stop having their own agendas or ideologies or that they stop hating one another's guts, though.

You're right, Vreeg - the Lovecraftian thing is definitely present in the Elder Ones.  They're also sort of channeling Chaos, Night, and some of the other primordial things from Paradise Lost which even Satan seems to be wary of:

"...thither he plyes,
Undaunted to meet there what ever power
Or Spirit of the nethermost Abyss
Might in that noise reside, of whom to ask
Which way the neerest coast of darkness lyes
Bordering on light; when strait behold the Throne
Of Chaos, and his dark Pavilion spread
Wide on the wasteful Deep; with him Enthron'd
Sat Sable-vested Night, eldest of things...

...T' whom Satan turning boldly, thus. Ye Powers
And Spirits of this nethermost Abyss,
Chaos and ancient Night, I come no Spy,
With purpose to explore or to disturb
The secrets of your Realm, but by constraint
Wandring this darksome Desart, as my way
Lies through your spacious Empire up to light,
Alone, and without guide, half lost, I seek
What readiest path leads where your gloomie bounds
Confine with Heav'n; or if som other place
From your Dominion won, th' Ethereal King
Possesses lately, thither to arrive
I travel this profound, direct my course..."

Here Satan is a bit more chummy with Chaos & Night than I'm imagining the demons to be, but I'm thinking of adding more about them... perhaps the fallen have tried to enact some treaties with the Tartareans - for example, letting them rule over Creation if the demons are allowed to keep Paradise for themselves.[/ooc]

[Steerpike]

[ooc]Added The Watchers and switched some images.[/ooc]

[sparkletwist]

I'd like to also suggest you incorporate some way for the players to play old pagan gods as demons, as this provides a great deal of inspiration and character concepts. It goes along with Judeo-Christian theology anyway, which took a lot of the pagan gods from the surrounding region and made them demons. (Baal, Ishtar/Astarte, etc.)

The Authority casting all beings who would dare call themselves gods (and thus set themselves up as rivals) down into Hell along with the rebellious angels would certainly make sense. :) It also helps to draw in some other cosmologies and add depth to your conflict.

With the introduction of the Elder Ones, I see you're definitely trying to expand it past just a pure "Abrahamic" mythology. I like that approach. So I'd also like to suggest some place in this expanding cosmology for Eastern religion, like Hinduism or Buddhism, as a lot of "Angel and Demon" stuff completely ignores it-- and that's no fun, and kind of leaves out a rather large portion of human souls they might be interested in fighting for. Reincarnation doesn't really fit into your cosmology, I think-- so maybe they're just lying about that. Or maybe it's tied into the concept of Purgatory, which I also don't know if you have or not. But, in both cases, there is some way for souls to escape their fate, at least for a short time.

[Ghostman]

I like the Watchers, they look like they could be even more fun and interesting characters than the demons. Do the Nephilim have obviously angelic forms or do they resemble humans? How long do they live if not slain? Do demons try to court them as they do the Watchers?

[Steerpike]

[blockquote=sparkletwist]I'd like to also suggest you incorporate some way for the players to play old pagan gods as demons, as this provides a great deal of inspiration and character concepts. It goes along with Judeo-Christian theology anyway, which took a lot of the pagan gods from the surrounding region and made them demons. (Baal, Ishtar/Astarte, etc.)

The Authority casting all beings who would dare call themselves gods (and thus set themselves up as rivals) down into Hell along with the rebellious angels would certainly make sense. It also helps to draw in some other cosmologies and add depth to your conflict.[/blockquote]I think the way I'm going to handle "pagan" deities is that they're actually mostly "demons" who've accrued their own religions.  This fits well since the demons view themselves as gods, whereas its only the Authority (and his subjects) who enforce hierarchies.

That said I might have some non angelic/demonic presences abroad in the world.  I'll have to think about that one more. [blockquote=Ghostman]I like the Watchers, they look like they could be even more fun and interesting characters than the demons. Do the Nephilim have obviously angelic forms or do they resemble humans? How long do they live if not slain? Do demons try to court them as they do the Watchers?[/blockquote]The Nephilim probably look like humans with subtle angelic attributes - think aasimar.  The demons would try to court them, but since they're not nearly as powerful as their parents they wouldn't be sought after quite as urgently.  They'd probably be treated more like mortal sorcerers and the like - mortals who've accrued a scrap of power.  Worthy of more consideration than you're average human, but still a weak, petty creature.

[Ghostman]

If a Watcher was to give in to temptation and fall into the Abyss, would it lose or keep it's wings? If the latter is the case, would other Demons attack it out of jealousy?

[Steerpike]

[ooc]Hmn, I hadn't thought of that.  The way I'd generally imagined it was that an angel's wings have to be deliberately confiscated/removed, though during the Fall itself they were all incinerated... I'd say that if a Watcher who still had its wings died (and therefore went to Hell - no way the Authority is letting any stripe of rebel back into Paradise) they'd retain their wings in the Underworld.  I think the demonic reaction would vary wildly, but I can imagine jealous demons trying to stal the wings for themselves somehow... bizarre but excellent idea![/ooc]

[Scribble]

I love the idea personally, but I was wondering; what are the different factions of Angels, or are there any such factions at all? My occult knowledge in the matter is a bit limited, but if the Tempter setting follows the traditional interpretation of angelology, then the hosts of the Authority could range from the numerous Angels to the inhuman and senses-shattering Seraphim. Might different hosts have their own ideas of how to deal with the Adversary or, as in the Abyss, might particularly powerful or influencal Angels attract their own groups of supporters; I could see the Archangel Michael constantly begging the Authority to allow him to lay seige to the gates of the Abyss, while Zerachiel might prefer the gather of their own mortal army to combat Hell's own.

[Steerpike]

[ooc]That's a very interesting question, and one I hadn't thought as much about.  The problem with the factions of Heaven is that as portrayed so far, Heaven is a dictatorship, in contrast with the anarchic parliament of Hell; the big man upstairs would pretty much quash dissent on the spot.

That said, I've been reading a lot of Lucifer and Preacher recently, and in both of those works God is a trickier figure... in the former His commands have to be interpreted (and He only speaks sporadically) whereas in the latter He's abandoned Heaven altogether.  His Dark Materials had another great option: make God senile.  Something like that might really work in this setting (this might form the focus of a campaign - discovering that God isn't what He used to be).

Anyone have any ideas for reconciling the idea of an authoritarian God with dissent in Heaven?[/ooc]

[Nomadic]

[ooc]That's a very interesting question, and one I hadn't thought as much about.  The problem with the factions of Heaven is that as portrayed so far, Heaven is a dictatorship, in contrast with the anarchic parliament of Hell; the big man upstairs would pretty much quash dissent on the spot.

That said, I've been reading a lot of Lucifer and Preacher recently, and in both of those works God is a trickier figure... in the former His commands have to be interpreted (and He only speaks sporadically) whereas in the latter He's abandoned Heaven altogether.  His Dark Materials had another great option: make God senile.  Something like that might really work in this setting (this might form the focus of a campaign - discovering that God isn't what He used to be).

Anyone have any ideas for reconciling the idea of an authoritarian God with dissent in Heaven?[/ooc]

Well he obviously gave angels free will in the first place or you wouldn't have demons. I'd say that as long as the angels are still following his commands he would have no problem with them voicing their own opinions on how best to carry those commands out.

[Steerpike]

[ooc]Oh they definitely have free will - I just can't imagine many disagreeing to the Authority's face, so to speak.  If they nominally accept Him as all-knowing and all-powerful, it seems problematic to contest His opinions.

(It should be noted that way I'm interpreting the Authority definitely isn't the kind, loving God of contemporary, moderate Christianity/Judaism/Islam so much as the ruthless, jealous, vengeful mass-murderer that arises from a strict, literal reading of Abrahamic religious lit, much more like the Gnostic Demiurge or Blake's Urizen than the forgiving and benevolent deity many worship today)[/ooc]